511. Exposing the True Causes of Illness: Empowering Health Sovereignty w/ Dawn Lester

Dawn Lester

DISCLAIMER: This podcast is presented for educational and exploratory purposes only. Published content is not intended to be used for diagnosing or treating any illness. Those responsible for this show disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information presented by Luke or his guests. Please consult with your healthcare provider before using any products referenced. This podcast may contain paid endorsements for products or services.

Author and researcher Dawn Lester joins us to tackle the question: What’s really making us sick? Dawn shares her experience with her cancer diagnosis, plus we get into the shadiness of Big Pharma, the vaccine agenda, germ theory, and where the medical establishment went wrong. 

Dawn Lester is a researcher and writer. She is co-author of What Really Makes You Ill?: Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong, published in December 2019, as well as two books published in 2010 under the pen-name NoR. 

The events of 2020 and beyond inspired her to look deeper into the meaning of life and the true nature of our experiences. Her ongoing journey of self-discovery inevitably led to the re-examination of some of the more difficult experiences of her own life and, through modalities such as IFS, she has been able to gain valuable insights and view those painful past experiences in a different light. 

Her current research is focused on various topics that assist her in deepening her understanding of life, which she believes involves learning how to integrate our understanding of our true nature as consciousness with living our lives as free and uniquely individual men and women. She posts articles on various topics on her Substack.

DISCLAIMER: This podcast is presented for educational and exploratory purposes only. Published content is not intended to be used for diagnosing or treating any illness. Those responsible for this show disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information presented by Luke or his guests. Please consult with your healthcare provider before using any products referenced. This podcast may contain paid endorsements for products or services.

What’s really making us sick? We know it’s not germs or whatever else we’re being told by the medical establishment and pharmaceutical companies. So, what is at the root cause of illness? That’s the big question we tackle today with researcher and author Dawn Lester. 

Dawn is the co-author of the 2019 book, What Really Makes You Ill?: Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong, as well as two books published in 2010 under the pen name NoR. The events of 2020 and beyond have inspired Dawn to look even deeper into the meaning of life and the true nature of our experiences. 

In today’s enlightening conversation, Dawn shares her experience with cancer treatment, how she interfaced with the medical system, and the discoveries she made in the wake of her diagnosis. We explore the interconnected factors that are really compromising our health. 

Plus, we get into the shadiness of Big Pharma, the vaccine agenda, germ theory, and where the medical establishment historically went wrong. If you’re sick of being fed false information on why you’re sick, this episode is for you. 

(00:00:18) Life in the United Kingdom

  • Dawn’s experience living in the UK as a freedom-oriented person 
  • Navigating truth in today’s media landscape 
  • Geo-engineering in different parts of the world 
  • The hijacking of the environmental movement 
  • Citizen activism in the UK

(00:15:34) Discoveries After Her Diagnosis 

(00:28:32) The Shadiness of Big Pharma 

  • How dangerous are the supposed solutions? 
  • The dubious way drugs are tested 

(00:34:42) What’s Really Making Us Sick?

(00:45:26) Listen to Your Body’s Messages 

  • Why symptoms are the body’s efforts to restore homeostasis 
  • Why the loss of taste and smell is a signal 
  • Tapping into your body’s intuitive knowing 

(00:50:06) Why We Get Sick Together 

  • Debunking germ theory
  • Why people get the sniffles at the same time
  • The interconnectedness of the human experience 
  • Why vitality is more than health 

(00:56:11) Is The Holiday Season Toxic? 

  • The connection between flu season and holiday overindulgence 
  • The effects of the atmosphere on the body 

(01:04:02) Where the Medical System Went Wrong

  • Infiltration of the Rockefeller medicine system 
  • History of mandatory vaccines
  • Going back to nature to heal our bodies 
  • What leads to chronic conditions?

(01:14:02) The Vaccine Agenda 

  • The nefarious agenda of childhood vaccines
  • Dangerous side effects of pharmaceuticals and vaccines
  • Not labeling and boxing in our children 

(01:24:51) Meaningful Methods To Detox 

(01:33:08) Dawn’s Three Influential Teachers 

Luke Storey: [00:00:00]So Dawn, judging by your accent, you are not from Kentucky, or Zimbabwe, oranywhere else in the world. You're very clearly from the UK.

Dawn Lester: [00:00:07]I am, yes.

Luke Storey: [00:00:09]In the past few years, looking at the UK through the lens of the media, whetherit be mainstream or alternative, it seems to be quite repressive in terms ofrules, and roads being shut off for the climate, and the precursors to15-minute cities, and all of this kind of stuff. Has it gotten as oppressive asit seems to us that don't live there, or are you still relatively free afterthis debacle that they called a pandemic?

Dawn Lester: [00:00:44]It varies, and it varies in different places. And I'm sure like with here,there are pockets where things are more oppressive, and there are pockets wherethings are freer. And I know they've trialed the 15-minute cities in Oxford,which is a pretty major city. And there have been people who've been trying tonot go along and not comply. So there's definitely a growing awareness of theproblems and what's going on. 

So throughout thenonsense, as I call it, I didn't comply. The situation seemed to be fairlyokay, and there were other people who just had real problems, so it seemed tovary. But of course, being so much smaller space, they could be quite closetogether. And there are, again, just like with everything everywhere, differentsituations. And in certain pockets, there are more freedom-oriented people, sothey're more likely to not comply. 

And it just depends on theoppressive system of whatever's going on locally. So yeah, it's likeeverywhere. It does vary. And I think people have asked as well. It sounds likeit's oppressive. And I wonder if that's the media trying to just hype up what'sgoing on to make everyone think, oh, it's really bad over there. 

So it's not always thatwise to believe what's in the press. And sometimes even the alternative,because they've still got their ideas of how to put the information across. Soit hasn't been too oppressive. However, there have been times when it's beenreally difficult, and you've got to just navigate where you are.

Luke Storey: [00:02:45]Much of the alternative media, unfortunately, also relies on sensationalism. Sowe think, oh, there's mainstream media where everything's fake. So therefore,the alternative is giving us everything that's real. But clickbait works onboth sides, right?

Dawn Lester: [00:03:00]Oh, absolutely.

Luke Storey: [00:03:01]So it's like you have to really, I think, develop a fine sense of discernmentto be able to navigate your way through the truth versus falsehood of theworld. And that's why I asked you. I haven't been to the UK in ages, but whenlooking at it through either lens of the media, I think, oh man, this lookslike it's getting really bad there. 

What I remember, and wewere just about to talk about this before we started recording, when I wasgoing there quite a bit in the early to mid-2000s, one thing I did notice wasthat the geoengineering program at that time was out of control. It washardcore in Los Angeles, where I lived at the time. But I remember being in theUK and just going, oh my God, it is just nonstop. 

You wake up with a semi-clearday, and by 2:00 in the afternoon, it looks like a cloudy day when it's notnaturally so. And you can just see them whizzing across the sky over and overagain, where there are no airports, and no normal commercial travel patterns,and all that stuff. And I was like, wow, God, why do they want to hammer thisparticular piece of land so bad?

Dawn Lester: [00:04:17]Yes, there are some days where the sky is just crisscrossed. And veryoccasionally, we get some nice weather. One of the things, of course, isbecause England's famous for the weather being a little bit cloudy, or drizzly,or rainy, or whatever. So when there's cloud cover, of course you can't seethem. And sometimes when they part, you say, oh, they're up in the sky. 

So I think it's beenpretty persistent, which is annoying, to say the least. I think it's beenpretty widespread, and it's not just in certain pockets. I think it's beenpretty widespread around the country too for people. And in a way, it's goodbecause it's got people to see what's going on. And yet there are some timeswhen you look up, people just walking around, looking at their phones as usual,and you want to try and encourage them to like, look up, look up. 

You could sit there andpoint at the sky, but yeah, it has been pretty crazy. And it is nice, though.It's more than nice, and it's wonderful the occasional clear blue sky as wehave today here. It's pretty rare. And sometimes it can last all morning, andthen you start seeing the trails going across. You think, oh, can't you justleave us alone just for one day, please? 

So yeah, it has been, andI don't know why they're targeting the UK particularly. I know they have trialsof different programs in various places. So maybe they've got a reason fortrialing that kind of thing in the UK. I don't know.

Luke Storey: [00:06:08]Yeah. It's interesting traveling to different countries. Every once in a while,I'll go somewhere, and I don't see it happening. Most recently, in Costa Rica,I was there for a week. I didn't see it once, and I asked someone who's anecologist and environmentalist of sorts. They said, do you know whatgeoengineering is? He said, oh yeah. I said, why don't they do it here? And hesaid, are you kidding? The people would never put up with it. We're so investedin legitimate environmentalism here as a culture that people wouldn't stand forit. 

And I thought, God, ifthat's true, that's incredible. I wish more countries around the world would,as you said, look up and go, no, we're not having this. And even sometimes inMexico, I've been to Mexico for periods of time and not seeing it, India,different places. It's so interesting. Who knows what their strategy is. It'sjust trippy.

I'll share something withyou as a non-American that I thought was really interesting. Being a skywatcher for a couple of decades now, I'm just going, God, when is this going tostop? Or just noticing on a day, like you said, when you get a break, it's acause for celebration that we have a natural sky.

So I was living in LosAngeles, and right around the time Donald Trump was inaugurated, the sprayingtotally stopped, and it stopped almost completely for that entire four years ina rare exception, which was exceedingly rare. And so I noticed it. It stopped.And then when he was out, it started back up again. I thought that was reallyinteresting. 

And I don't know if he hadanything to do with it, or if somebody cut funding somewhere, or what washappening, but I thought that was really strange, and it was absolutely thetruth, because I could see with my own two eyes. As someone who was payingattention to that, I thought that was really interesting. 

And I've never met anyonethat had any insight into that. Of course, he was at the helm at the beginningof the biggest psyop maybe in history, and likely the biggest genocide too. SoI think some really horrific things happened under his watch. But for whateverreason, during that time, it stopped, and I was like, well, we got that, atleast. We got a break for a couple of years.

Dawn Lester: [00:08:25]Yes. And you think of, oh, I'm being a conspiracy theorist, but I wonder ifthere was a deliberate policy to not spray, and then he could be praised for,oh, look what he's done. So I don't know, because we know it's not quite theway we're told things are running in the political world. So politics isn'twhat we're told. Or as you say, maybe it could be funding going elsewhere, intothe vaccine agenda maybe. Who knows? 

Luke Storey: [00:08:59]They just come after you another way.

Dawn Lester: [00:09:01]Yeah. Going back to what you were saying about the environmental movement, thatwas pretty much hijacked from the '70s. There's some genuine environmentaliststhat were starting, going back to Rachel Carson, the Silent Spring. And ofcourse, they didn't like that because they wanted to keep their programsgoing. 

So they hijacked theenvironmental movement and turned it into the fake green movement and bringingin all their policies. And it's moved into what is the climate change hoax? Oh,well, if you don't believe in climate change, you're against the environment.Well, no, I'm very much for the environment, but I know that climate change hasgot nothing to do with carbon dioxide. 

Carbon dioxide is plantfood. So they just conflate all these different ideas, and ideologies, andpeople get confused, which is good for them because that's exactly what theywant. And then people don't start to think. And I think the confusion meansthat they're not going to take action. They're not going to do things. 

So it's so frustratingwhen you see all of that, and there's so many things to unpick and unlearn, andit can be hard work for people just to pick their way through things. So likeyou say, with the mainstream, you go, okay, they're lying. Well, notnecessarily all the time. There is sometimes some truth in it. 

So also, the alternative,you get an either-or choice. It's either the mainstream or the alternative. Andin truth, neither of them are really giving you as much information as youdeserve. And so there are always other avenues to look into, other places tolook at, and to just step back from being drawn into the argument, into thedichotomy of this or that. And there's nothing else, no other options.

And so it's to help peoplestep back from that, see it in a different way. Sit with it. Think about it.Look into it. Look into what's really going on, and then see where the truthlies, in either case, if anything, or look into what's really going on andreally understand what's happening and what you can do about it, because mostof the time, we're given the idea that we can't do anything about it. 

And that's also part ofhow they like us to think. Oh, there's nothing we can do. Let somebody else doit for us. It's the authority out there. Get them to do it for us. And, no,there are things that we can do.

Luke Storey: [00:11:43]Well, that's exactly what I want to talk about. Before we get off of the UKthread, one thing that I think has been really interesting is these citizenactivists that have been going around and disabling all of the inner city speedcameras and stuff. And if anyone's listening, I'm against this behaviorentirely. But yeah, they're going and buying spray foam from the hardwarestore, and saws. And as fast as they can put them up in some neighborhood,people are taking them down, which is, of course, morally atrocious but-- 

Dawn Lester: [00:12:21]Kind of creative.

Luke Storey: [00:12:22]Yeah. But I always get encouragement when I see things like that, a non-violentreaction to something that is oppressive and ultimately violent. And on theclimate change thing, too, it's funny. It's like any problem that's presentedto the populace for which the solution is one version of communism cangenerally tell you. That's where your discernment is. It's like, okay, well,maybe there's a problem. Let's look at it. What's the solution being offered?And the same would be true of the plandemic. 

And when we know there areother solutions-- I don't like pollution. I do my very best to not create anypollution, and leave my campsite cleaner than I found it, and all of that. ButI know that the solution that I can get behind does not have anything to dowith limiting people's rights and freedoms. It has to do with honoring andrespecting the planet, and other people, and all of that. So I think that'sfunny. You can get a hint of something's legitimate by the solution that'sbeing offered.

Dawn Lester: [00:13:25]Mm. Yes. And when the solution is only what they say we can do, then, as yousay, it's to step back and say no, no, no, I can make my own decisions, andI'll choose for myself. And yes, there are some interesting actions going on.So yes, I'm not recommending anything either. It's just interesting to see.It's more than interesting. 

It's actually encouragingbecause it is showing that people are not happy with where they are being led,and they're saying, no, actually, no, no, enough's enough. Let's find adifferent way of living. And we want freedom. And it's so simple. The basicrule is do no harm. Don't do anything, as you say. There's a genuine way tolook after the environment, is to just look after it. Don't poison it. Don't polluteit. And to recognize that we are part of nature as well. 

If you're harming nature,we're affecting our own lives. If you poison the stream and you want to drinkthe water, you're poisoning yourself. So it's just recognizing those basicprinciples of being aware of what you're doing, and the consequences, theimpact that you're having. And it's not to be perfect either because we'restill in a transition of learning how things really work, and turning thingsaround in a different way, and just looking at different ideas and thinking,oh, that's possible.

There isn't one other way.There isn't one other alternative. There are as many alternatives as there arepeople that have ideas. People are coming up with some amazingly creative ideasof what to do, how to live, and living in community, joining together, how tolook after themselves. And that's really it. It's, look after ourselves.

Luke Storey: [00:15:26]One of your most noteworthy works is the book What Really Makes Us Ill, which Iunfortunately have not read because I didn't have time to do so before we satdown for this conversation. I like to do my homework normally, but this one, Icouldn't quite get it in. But I do know a bit about you. 

I did study up, and Iunderstand that you were victorious over a cancer diagnosis and that youinterfaced with the traditional medical system and their treatments for it andhave, over the years, discovered a lot about the allopathic disease suppressionmodel versus self-sovereignty and taking care of yourself. 

So maybe you could take usback to the cancer diagnosis and what that experience was like, and what youdid to heal yourself, or allow that system to help heal you, and so on.

Dawn Lester: [00:16:22]I'll try and give the potted version, but my mother-in-law died of breastcancer, so I possibly had the, oh, I hope it doesn't happen to me thought in myhead. It was about eight years later. You go in for the test, and mammograms,and things. They found a benign lump. So that was fine in '93. Then two yearslater, another mammogram showed something that wasn't so benign. They were veryquick at getting me into hospital to have the surgery, and then followed bychemotherapy, radiotherapy, and then taking tamoxifen. 

What I did know at the time,and I still don't know how I knew it, but there was something inside me thatsaid I knew it was something to do with my mindset, how I approached it. So Ididn't fall into the, oh, it's desperate because of what had happened to mymother-in-law at the time. As I say, she died. 

I'm not saying, oh, Iwasn't fearful because I had a young child at the time, so it was not easy. Iknew I had to make changes in my life. Again, I don't know where these ideas,where these thoughts-- but there was something within me that I knew I had tomake changes. So I made some lifestyle changes. I moved away from preparedfood, processed food.

I moved into cleaner food.I was more careful with what I was using in the home, those kinds of things,just making small changes. At the time, also, I was interfacing with people whoalso had similar diagnosis, sometimes similar treatments, sometimes othertreatments. And the support group where you go through the same thing. And soit's quite nice to have that support. 

And then after a while, Ithought, I'm just keeping in that cancer thing, so owning it. And it was like,no, it's time to move on, get on with my life. So I didn't actually follow anyhealth protocols. I didn't do anything specific, just being more careful withwhat I was eating and what products I was using, really, and just being morethoughtful and knowing not to just allow myself to feel down all thetime. 

It's like, find things todo. Make some changes in my life. And then I realized I needed to make aparticularly large change, which was ending my marriage at the time, because Iknew that that just wasn't taking me in the right direction. I had a thoughtof, I want to do something useful with my life, and where I was, I didn't feelI was-- now, I can say I wasn't fulfilling my purpose, but back then, I didn'thave the language, didn't quite have the ideas in place.

So as a result of makingthat change, sometimes you close doors and others open. So at around thattime-- I'll just keep this brief-- the friend who I wrote the book with, he wasrunning a course at the time about the nature of reality. I was introduced tothe course. I took the course. It just really drew me. So I learned how to thenteach the course, which I thought, this is it. This is me. This is what I wantto do because it just really resonated with me. 

It was an in-personcourse. So we had to bring people into the center that we were running thecourses, and that wasn't always easy. So we tried to think of ways that wecould get this information out. So we turned it into a book. And in the processof turning it into a book, we were looking deeper how to transform what was acourse into a book form. 

And one of the chapters iscalled The Nature of Illness. So knowing the idea of, with The Biology ofBelief, Bruce Lipton, our health is affected by our beliefs. And so we thought,how does that work if we've got germs that infect us and make us ill? So wedecided to look into what germs were, and that was the start of the deep dive intowhat's the germ theory? What's this all about?

And we found that it'sunproven. And there's so much evidence from the time of Pasteur when that firstcame out. Plenty of people writing about the fact that it's unproven, and thereare other reasons that people get ill. So we thought, okay, this is reallyinteresting. So we just kept diving into all these different so-calledinfectious diseases. And are there other reasons for people to have thesediagnoses? 

So again, we moved intothat, looked into the history of vaccination, also looked into what are calledchronic illnesses and found that they're not quite what we've been told aswell. So we just said we've got to really pull this information in. But themore we looked into it, the more we want to make it a complete picture. 

So then we started lookinginto the medical system, how that was set up, how it's run, who controls it,how it works, why doctors don't know what we were finding out, and wediscovered that a lot of doctors do. Some of the information is out there. Andit was somewhat easier back then because The Nature of Reality book came out in2010.

So that was when we werethen diving into this other research and looking at, as I say, the wholemedical system and just finding out how flawed it is and how it doesn'trepresent how the body actually works. And so as well as talking about the realproblems, we thought, well, we've got to give people something at the end. Sowhat can we do about it? Because people always left with questions.

You don't want to say, oh,this is what makes you well and not give them somewhere to go with that,something to take forward. So we do have the final chapter giving someinformation about what people can do. And a lot of it is actually being awareof the problems and say, okay, there are problems with these pharmaceuticalproducts. There's plenty of evidence from iatrogenesis, the medical errors, allthose kinds of things. That pharmaceuticals don't do what they claim to do.They don't cure you. 

So one of the ways is tonot take the pharmaceuticals, or find ways to come off medications if you'retaking them. And I will say, this is not medical advice. I don't give medicaladvice. There are some that are easier to stop taking, and some people needhelp with. So I wouldn't suggest for a minute that people just say, oh, well,I'll stop them.

Sometimes people needassistance and support in working through because there are reactions, becausethe body gets used to something going in. So it then doesn't produce whateverit is that it would normally. So the things have to be rebalanced, and the bodyhas to adapt to readapt to its normal state, homeostasis. It depends on wherepeople are, because many people, and this is one of the things I've found, areon really large numbers of medications, this polypharmacy, it's called, Ibelieve.

And it's even morehorrifying to find small children, babies even, are given pharmaceuticals forall kinds of reasons. So yes, it covers a broad spectrum. That's a very briefoverview. But it's not just about debunking the germ theory. The way I see itis it's a good stepping stone. It's nearly 800 pages, so there's quite a lot ofinformation. 

And it's referenced, sopeople have got other places to go to to get further information. And the booksthat we write to bring the information out. So it's a stepping stone for peoplewho say, okay, what can I do? How does this work? So it's a good steppingstone. It doesn't cover everything. It's impossible because that would havebeen a 10-volume.

Luke Storey: [00:25:23]An encyclopedia set.

Dawn Lester: [00:25:24]Yeah, yeah. Yes. Ten-volume instead of 10 chapters. And even since it waspublished in December 2019, just before COVID, it was definitely somethinglurking out there. I've learned more in the past-- it's nearly four years,isn't it? So I've learned more, and we're still learning more about water andhow important water is. And our bodies are made of water. The fact that theheart isn't a pump, that blood is somewhat different. There's just so much moreinformation. 

And a lot of it is in thelast two modules of the End of Covid. Of course, if people have watched that,there's a lot of information, which is new information, that we are all stilllearning to find out just what health really is, what vitality is, what we cando about it, how the body actually works. 

And so it's an ongoingjourney of learning. So it's not a finite piece. It is still a very good, Ithink, stepping stone for people who want to know what the problems are and thestarting point of what they can do about it. Most of it is takingresponsibility for yourself.

Luke Storey: [00:26:48]Going back to the pharmaceuticals, as you mentioned, people being on multiplepharmaceuticals, I was trying to think if I've ever met anyone who says, yeah,I'm on seven different pharmaceuticals, and I feel amazing. You're never goingto meet anyone with that report. And not to discount all pharmaceuticals. I,every once in a while, take one, and it is effective and delivers as promised,but I know many people out in the world are on a number of differentpharmaceuticals. 

And I think one of theinherent problems there is, of course, that at best, they're treating thesymptom and not actually correcting the underlying issue. And the other problemthere that's terrifying to me is, of course, there's so much shadiness and thefraudulent nature of getting a drug approved, and all of the payola. It's likea mafia, the pharmaceutical industry at large. And the way that it interfaceswith the government and lobbyists. It's not a trustworthy enterprise ingeneral. 

But even when they aretested for safety, there is very little to no consideration of how thesedifferent drugs are going to interact with one another. It's a similar thing inthe realm of EMF. We know, okay, this frequency has been approved to runthrough a cell tower and blasted over a town or a city, but we don't know thephysics of what happens when all of these different frequencies are overlappingand creating this mutant field that is also non-native but maybe compounding inits deleterious effects.

So I think that's a funnything about the public being presented with technology or supposed solutions inthe form of pharmaceuticals. And we really don't know what happens when you mixall that together in a gumbo. It's a totally different response by the bodythan just taking something in its isolated form. 

And the same could be saidto some degree for supplements. I'm sure there are probably days I take a bunchof supplements that don't agree with each other, and I have no idea becausethey haven't been tested. I'm doing my own testing. I feel weird today. Oh,maybe I shouldn't have taken 40 pills this morning without any understanding ofhow they might interact.

Dawn Lester: [00:29:09]That is an extremely important point, that they may be tested for their safety,apparent safety. And again, there's maybe politics, and shadiness, anddifferent things that happen in order to get approval. And some products aretested in multiple forms, so maybe one or two. Because they're in certainpackage, they'll say this drug is contraindicated with X, Y, Z. So you mightget some information about contraindications. They're only certainpharmaceuticals that are tested together. 

When you've got somebodywho's on many multiples, it's almost 100% guarantee that that combinationhasn't been tested. Because they're usually only tested one-on-one or one withcertain others. It's a huge percentage haven't actually been tested at all. Thetesting procedures are somewhat loose, shall we say. And the way they're testedis just for certain effects. 

And we know that studyeffects can be cherry-picked with certain study results. And they, oh, those goin the bottom shelf, on the bottom drawer, and they're never seen again. Allresults aren't always made public. This is fairly well-documented. The famousJohn Ioannidis study, most published results are false, or over half ofpublished results are false anyway.

Luke Storey: [00:30:50]Yeah, 50%.

Dawn Lester: [00:30:51]Yeah, something like that. So again, you say, oh, peer-reviewed. Peer-reviewedpaper. Well, you have to say, yes, but that's not as meaningful as it'ssupposed to be.

Luke Storey: [00:31:02]Still a 50-50 gamble.

Dawn Lester: [00:31:05]Yes. And that's only on a certain drug. And they're more and more looking atpathways rather than anything that's actually going on. And most of the time,they're not looking at anything that's going on actually in the body becausethey're testing chemicals in petri dishes and various places in the laboratory.And animals may have similar bodies. They aren't the same. Their systems areslightly different, which is why you get cats and dogs that react badly to chocolate? 

I don't know. Maybe somepeople react badly to chocolate, but we are slightly different. Although theyuse mice and rats because they say, oh, we're, whatever it is, percent similar.And when you get an honest researcher, they'll actually admit that they usemice and rats because they're cheap and easy to handle. And some of theexperiments they do are nothing to do with the ordinary pathways of theso-called disease process. 

So things like infectiousdiseases, something like rabies, it's supposed to be passed through a bite orwhatever. And then they're cutting up animals' brains. It's pretty horrific theway they've been testing things. We're given the impression of they'reperforming science, and that's a very loose way of performing science. 

And again, the human bodyis complex. And the minute you take something out of the body, it's no longerin its natural environment, so it's already changed. So it's quite difficult.And so all the tests that they're performing are probably within thelaboratory. It's not within a human being, even though they'll find a certainreaction, or a response, or something, and then, as you say, test it in animalsand think that that is relevant to what happens in the human body.

Luke Storey: [00:32:58]Another interesting thing about the whole model of modern medicine is thepresumption that germs make us sick. I think that we're so indoctrinated withthat that I'm sure there are going to be probably thousands of people listeningto this that go, no, you're wrong. You got it wrong because I learned inschool, or maybe even medical school, that that is in fact what makes ussick. 

But going back to strictlyadhering to the scientific method, we're now learning that there was a wholeother school of thought that was about the terrain of the human body, not analien substance being introduced that's making you sick. And I've touched onthis in a couple podcasts, the one I did with Andy Kaufman and one I did withAlec Zeck before, and I think each of them laid it out in a pretty solidway. 

But it then, of course,begs the question, okay, if we've been led astray by the infectious diseasemodel yet people are still getting sick, and I'm sure this is the large premiseof your book, well, then what the hell is it? And of course, this is a hugequestion on our minds right now because we were led to believe over the pastfew years that people were getting sick from a virus that turned out to have acompletely fraudulent testing mechanism.

Therefore, we don't know.But someone who's in the mainstream narrative would say, well, all these peoplewere getting sick. And I would say, well, were they really? Because whathappened to the cold and flu statistics over the course of that time? When youlook at that, the cold and flu disappeared magically for three years and thencame back. And people probably have ridiculous rationalizations for why that isthe case.

But based on your researchand your experience over the many years, what do you think are some of the, Idon't know, elephants in the room of terms of, why do we end up with thesechronic diseases if it's not because we were exposed to bacteria or virus thathasn't been proven to exist, and so on?

Dawn Lester: [00:35:07]Oh, there are different aspects to that. First of all, the idea that, well, ifit's not a germ, what is it? That is really common because people want a 1 to1. Well, if it's not this one thing, what is this other one thing? And once youstart looking into the factors that are influencing our health, it's always amultiple combination. And there will be different combinations for each personbecause we boiled it down to what we call four factors. 

There are plenty of otherfactors if you like, but it's to do with our nutrition, the food we eat,toxicity. So that's huge, of course, all the different toxins we could beexposed to in food, water, air, products that we use, clothes that we wear, theway they're made, the different dyes, all kinds of things that can affect usbecause so much of it is based on chemicals that are unnatural. They'resynthetic. 

And so my body willrespond to them because the body recognizes they're not natural. Because ourskin is absorbent, if products get in, again, what you put on your body, ifyou're putting creams and different things on your body, the chemicals thatthey contain can actually be absorbed into your body. There's the chapter onthe kind of poisons in our environment. It's almost book-length, thatparticular chapter. 

And of course, there'sEMFs, which I know you've spoken about quite extensively because it's a bigproblem. And of course, they're from everywhere. And it's also not being scaredof everything to say that the body is amazing. It can cope with a certainamount. It's when there's an excess exposure. So again, it depends on where youare and what you are exposed to. 

And the fourth factor iswhat we call stress. But it's actually far wider than that. It was the onlyword that we could use to encompass that whole psychological, emotional,spiritual belief system part of it. Because stress does affect our health. Itcan compromise our health if you are under-- prolonged stress. Sorry.

We have stresses, andstress can be something where it's exciting. The body reacts to being excited.But that excitement will go down. Your body will restore homeostasis. It'sprolonged stress. And of course, the last four years have been definitelyprolonged stress for many people. So it's put a real strain on their bodies.

So it depletes theirbody's ability to function normally. It depletes the nutrients, and it stopsthe body from being able to do the normal processes of detox and things likethat. And the more I'm looking into that factor, the more I'm finding thatthat's possibly as big as the others. And yet it will be different for eachperson. There'll be different combinations for different people, but withineach factor, there's a whole variety. 

So within toxins,different people will be exposed to different toxins. So within a household, ifthe whole household has these symptoms, and again, I'll come on to that becausethat's something different, it's because they've got common exposures. They'reeating the same kind of food, drinking the same kind of water. If you have newfurniture, new carpets, those kinds of things, there's off-gassing ofchemicals. 

What's the materials thatare the house is made of? Or it could be next door's Wi-Fi. It could besomething that's being sprayed outside because there's an insect proliferation.So it's like an insect outbreak, and they spray, and then say, oh, there's anoutbreak of something because everyone's body's getting rid of this toxin thatthey've just been exposed to.

So common exposures isprobably the main answer to, what is it when a group of people become ill atthe same time? There is also the other factor, which is the Bruce LiptonBiology of Belief, that our experiences are affected by our beliefs. And peoplewho read the mainstream become fearful. They're made afraid of this thingthat's out there that can get them, and it'll make them ill, and they can bedrawn into it and absolutely believe it. 

The minute they have asniffle, or a cough, or a tickle in their throat, they think, I've got it. Theyread the symptoms, and their body, because they believe in it, can manifestthose symptoms. And if people think that's odd, I'd suggest that people mightwant to look up what's called the placebo effect and its mate, the noceboeffect, or its opposite, the nocebo effect. And just see how powerful thatis. 

And you can find thatpeople are responding to what are inert. They're sugar pills. They're inert.They're not supposed to have any kind of physiological effect. And people canmanifest all kinds of side effects, symptoms, as a result of taking thesepills. And there are studies that show there's, as well as minor symptoms,vomiting.

And if people thinkthey're taking the chemotherapy drug, they've been known for hair to fall out.And loss of taste and smell. This loss of taste and smell over the last fewyears has been hyped up. So suddenly people lose their sense of taste andsmell? Now, I'm not saying there may not be real reasons for that to happen.I'm suggesting that another factor is believing in it because you've been madefearful. 

So again, each person willbe different. There may be real factors. Something could be sprayed locally.And again, there could be a particular geoengineering campaign going on intheir area. They may have been intensified. The toxic content of the atmospherehas increased, and various symptoms will ensue from that. 

So that's why you can haveclusters of people, because something's going on. And you wouldn't always beaware. Something like geoengineering, people will be aware of, but if there's acovert spraying program in the local area, people may not know unless they'resensitive and they can smell whatever it is, something new in the environment.Most people probably won't know.

Luke Storey: [00:42:08]Yeah. Asbestos would be one of those that was just rolled out, and you don'tsit in a building and go, wow, it smells like asbestos. I better get out ofhere. And everyone in the building gets sick, right?

Dawn Lester: [00:42:21]Yes, the sick building syndrome. I don't know if you call it the same thinghere.

Luke Storey: [00:42:27]Yeah.

Dawn Lester: [00:42:28]So it's people being in the same environment, and it could be EMFs. It could benew furniture, new carpeting, as I said before. And again, that might explainsome of the symptoms that happen. When children return to school because theschools have been cleaned during the holidays, especially the summer holiday--I know it's slightly different here.

So if they're cleaning theschool, who knows what they're using? And the last few years, they've probablybeen really upping the anti-- I'll come back to that-- these disinfectantsbecause you've got to really clean everything. And of course, they're toxicbecause they're designed to kill. And that was the point I was about to say.Because it's supposed to have been a virus, and what they're using, they'reantibacterials, not antivirals. 

So this isn't a bacterial.It's supposed to be a bacterial thing in these disinfectants, these sanitizers.That's what I was looking for. Sorry. The sanitizers are antibacterial. Again,these are the sorts of things that people go, that's an antibacterial, and it'ssupposed to be a virus. That doesn't match. There's a contradiction here. Sothat's one of the things where you just know there's something off here.

And the other part isunderstanding what symptoms are in the first place. Because the body isbrilliant, it doesn't make mistakes. It doesn't suddenly do all sorts of sillythings. It looks after itself. The body will look after itself, and it's alwaystrying to restore homeostasis. And symptoms are the body's efforts to restorehomeostasis. It's the body's cleansing mechanisms. It's quite easy. Sneezing,fever, those kinds of things. Or vomiting. Whatever. 

The body's purging. Thebody's clearing. These are normal processes. And the one thing that is best notto do is to suppress the symptoms. I understand when people are in pain, andthat can be debilitating, and sometimes you need to stop the pain so you canjust manage. Loss of sense of taste and smell, I think also could be part ofthe body's message to just don't do food today. Just leave it. Yes.

Loss of appetite is oftenconnected to that. So when you're not eating, the body's got more energybecause the digestive system takes up a lot of energy digesting food. So thebody's saying, no, don't put any more in because I need to just deal withwhat's in there and also conduct some healing. I've got some healing to dohere. I've got some processes to get on with. 

So that can be a message.And again, it's learning to listen to our bodies, to read the messages, tounderstand. This is a process. This is all part of what we're learning. Oh,here's a message here for my body. For me, occasionally, I have headaches, andI think, oh, okay, it's a message. It means, have a rest, take some time out.Just rest.

Because of what I do andreading, and everything, and research, and looking at the screen, andeverything, that's not so easy when your head's sore. So it's just, okay, takesome time out, just go and rest. Have an easier day. Just back off from what Iwas going to do. 

So it's learning thosekinds of things, learning about your own body, reading your own body,understanding it and what to do, when to help it, what to do. When's the rightthing to take something to help the body so you can keep going? And when it'stime to just, no, I don't want to keep going because that'll push me. 

So again, listening, andlearning, and hearing, and that requires us to just take everything back toourselves, understand ourselves. And again, work intuitively. Sit quietly andthink. And listen, not think. Listen intuitively to your body and what's goingon.

Luke Storey: [00:46:49]It's interesting to the point of loss of taste and smell and loss of appetite.It made me think of pets. Sometimes I would try to feed my dog, and she justwon't eat her food. It doesn't happen very often, but every once in a while, Igo, God, it's your favorite food. Eat, eat. Try to give her a treat. Notinterested. And she might not be displaying symptoms, so don't put togetherthat, oh, perhaps she's ill, or she's eating something off, or just needs timeto recuperate. 

She's innately attuned toher own little body and is going like, no, no food right now. Just a naturalresponse. And I think we often are not as tapped in and ignore those things, ortry to take a medication or something that suppresses the body's naturalreaction. It's an interesting observation. Animals are always so much smarterthan us in many ways.

Dawn Lester: [00:47:38]Well, that can [Inaudible].

Luke Storey: [00:47:40]Exactly. You can't brainwash your dog. You can try. Maybe Pavlovianbrainwashing to a degree, but other than that-- another thing I think that'sinteresting on this thread is taking the germ contagion theory as a myth, if welive together in the same household and I've gotten what we would call a coldor flu, if we're not transmitting these germs to one another, then why do youget sick? 

And I thought one timeabout the phenomenon of women being in close proximity for a period of time andhow their menstrual cycles will go into sync. And I've not looked into it. Idon't know that anyone's been able to explain why that happens. Or like when weyawn. If I'm really tired and I start yawning, you'll start yawning. 

Do you think that it'spossible that if I start to get the sniffles and a cough, if that is in factthe body's own purification system and the body's intelligence knows, okay,it's time to start doing our detoxing of this flame, or however it's working,that the other person's body is taking a cue that, well, let's all do thistogether now?

Dawn Lester: [00:48:53]It could be. Yes. And the problem is that there isn't a single answer. Andit'll be different for different people, so possibly. The syncing with periods,I don't think it's anything I remember experiencing, and I understand. I think,in a way, maybe it's a resonance of bonding and emotional connection. If thesewomen are getting on well together, yeah, it's a bonding and resonance.

Depending on the time ofyear, as you say, if you get the sniffles, if it's the time of year the seasonschange, humidity, something has changed, or my body kind of decides it's timefor a purge, then you coughing may make me cough, or whatever it is, so itmight if it's appropriate. But the yawning thing, it's such a good analogy tosay because you yawn, and I might yawn. 

Does that prove contagion?Did you pass a yawning virus to me? No. I think sometimes when you look at itthat way, you think, no, of course it's not a yawning virus. There is somesympathetic something with us. We are connected. We are connected throughconsciousness. We are not separate blobs in this random place. Nothing israndom. We are connected.

So sometimes we come outin sympathy with people. If somebody's really sad, when they tell their story,it can make you sad, or it can actually make you feel stronger to be able tohold them in that moment when they're sad. So you can help them get throughwhatever the emotion is. Might go one way or the other. 

And again, it's justdifferent. And I really am not comfortable with the idea that it's only everone thing because it'll be different in different situations because we'regoing through different experiences. And your expression of symptoms may meansomething different for me. I could be, oh, I'm not going to do that. I'mshowing me that I no longer have a belief in germs.

For a number of years,when people say, oh, they've got the sniffles or bunged up, or whatever else,stay away from me. I've got the [Inaudible], so don't worry. You've got nothingI can catch. A lot of times, they just don't understand, and I haven't goneinto it if they just don't want to know. But it's knowing that there's nothingyou can pass. So it'll be different in different situations. 

But as you say, it mighttrigger a resonance that my body just says, oh yeah, purge time, and you can dothe same thing. And I'm not saying don't take things that help you, because ifyou're really uncomfortable, that's miserable. And it's to not take things tostop the symptoms, taking whatever it is. Because I know you've spoken toAmanda, and she has lots of remedies to help.

You're helping the bodyhelp itself to overcome and get through that and be stronger coming out of theother side so that you can cleanse and then be stronger to give your body theextra resources to be able to deal with whatever the process is to come throughso you're stronger. And it's not just health. It's vitality. This is somethingmore than just health. There's something more to go towards. Health is notabsence of symptoms. It's there's something more energetic, something morevital behind it.

Luke Storey: [00:52:55]Which would, of course, be inclusive of the vitality of your immune responseand how resilient you are to whatever the threat is, whether it's thatsympathetic resonance you share with the sick person who's nearby, or somethingenvironmental, or toxin exposure, or whatever it is. It really is about thevitality and resilience of your body. And as you said so importantly, yourmental and emotional body. 

I think that's somethingthat's really easy to see, is that, excuse me, placebo thing of the power ofbelief that if you have a cold, or a flu, and I strongly believe that it'scontagious, and then I spent some time with you, or give you a hug, or a kiss,or whatever, that now I'm going to get it. There's so much power in the mind.And I know times in which I've been under a lot of emotional distress, I'vegotten sick much more often than in times where I have my shit together. Youknow what I mean? 

There's really a lot to besaid for that. And even thinking about the what we call cold and flu season,which I think my whole life I probably believed, oh, it's because it getschillier outside generally depending on where you live. But I've thought aboutalso from the perspective of the holiday seasons, at least here in thiscountry, we've got Halloween. We're eating tons of sugar. 

We've got Thanksgiving.We're eating tons of sugar and probably food that is less than healthy in somecases. And then you've got Christmas. It's like the holiday season is the timewhere we're probably the most toxic, most overindulgent in alcohol, and sugar,and all the other things. We're partying with the family, and then all of asudden, oh, everyone's getting sick. That and the barometric pressure changes,the changes in humidity. There's all kinds of factors going on that couldrationally displace the contagion theory.

Dawn Lester: [00:55:02]Oh, absolutely. We don't have Thanksgiving in England. However, Halloween isreally becoming a thing, so lots of sweets, all sorts of occasions and excusesfor children to eat sweets. And as you say, Christmas and that whole holidayperiod, people are eating sugary, sweet things, but richer food. 

They're sitting around.They're not working. It's great for people to get together. That's verynourishing in many ways, unless you have family problems. And sometimes peopleare reluctant. It's like, we'll go there for Christmas, but not really wantingto. 

So again, it's setting upsome energy barrier in what they're doing. They don't really want to do it, andthey're doing something. So even something as simple as that. And there'ssomething else. I'll come back to that. So when you're putting a lot of newfoods, richer foods, sweet foods, all that kind of stuff into your body and thenexpecting it to just carry on as normal, it might do for a time. 

And then in January, theycall it flu season when people's bodies just say, okay, time to clear thisthrough. And they just call it flu season. And of course, it's not. If peoplewho are more, I say, careful-- That's not judgmental. It's like people whodon't indulge as much may not have those sorts of symptoms because their bodyis doing the normal cleansing. Their system is clean.

It sounds so judgmental tosay. And your body is working fine, and therefore the normal eliminationprocess is working. It's only when it gets somewhat overloaded that these othersymptoms occur. And so fevers, again, stop you from doing things and usuallystop you from eating. Because the body's just like, enough, give me a break. Ineed a rest. And there was something else I was saying about-- I was going togo back to food.

Luke Storey: [00:57:12]Changes in weather.

Dawn Lester: [00:57:14]Yes. Changes in season, changes in weather, as you say, changes in humidity,because the body has to rebalance. And there are some ideas that that's what iscalled malaria. Those symptoms are the result of being in a very humidatmosphere, because it was certainly common in England, in the marshy areas,where it's pretty stagnant air, very humid, and people were drinking the water,which was not clean flowing water.

So that's why people hadthe symptoms that then were called malaria, or, in England, marsh fever. It'sthen called malaria. Now it's given something else, and it's shifted from whatit was originally into something else. But of course, that's because they wantto be able to fight it and give drugs and get into Africa, where people arepoor and they have poor diets into those sorts of pockets of areas, and justsay, oh, it's malaria. It's the mosquitoes. 

We need to get in thereand interfere, and they give them-- again, this veering into the stuff withinthe book. So as I say, it's quite extensive where these poor men are[Inaudible], and that's true. And they're giving them these "food"products. These products that are supposed to contain all these differentthings. 

And when you look at theingredients, it's not really food. There's a lot of sugar and things, and it'snot real food. And so their stomachs are filled, but they're not nourished.Wherever it was I was going with the food, I'll have to come back.

Luke Storey: [00:59:06]Let's go to the medical system. And we started out talking about how youinterfaced successfully with the medical system somehow with a life-threateningillness. What's always interesting to me when trying to just contemplate any ofour challenges as a society, as a human populace, is, where did it start, andwhat was it like before?

And so because I wasn'taround before the '30s or '40s, when the medical system that we find ourselvesentrenched in now existed, there were medicine people of different tribes, andthere was obviously herbalism and things like that are still percolating in theunderground. People like you and I are helping to bring that to the surface andmake those ideas more available to people.

But it seemed that peoplethat lived on the land throughout history found different ways of healingdifferent issues. If you think about medicines in the Amazon, there's probablythings that thousands of compounds we're not even aware of in the West, thatpockets of indigenous people are still using there, and so on. 

And then at some point,this Rockefeller organization comes in and starts to vilify all methods ofnatural healing and introduce these petroleum-based pharmaceuticals andwhatnot. And then that infiltrated the education system so that doctors thatwere and are well-meaning become educated/indoctrinated into this system ofsurgery, poison, burn it out, rather than giving the body what it needs toheal. 

What's your perspective onthe historical context of how we got in the mess we're in now? And maybe wherewere we before and where can we arrive in the future in an ideal situation?

Dawn Lester: [01:01:07]Yes. The Rockefeller medicine system came into this country in-- we're in theUS, so came in here. Well, it started with the Flexner Report of 1910. It was aslow buildup, and it started long before that because there were people, if I'mcorrect, from the 15th century that were using substances like mercury andarsenic-based compounds as so-called medicines. 

So what we have now is aprogression of that. Because, as I say, they were using these toxic compoundsfor so-called healing within certain parts of, I would say, the so-calledcivilized west, the US and the UK. So yes, I don't know how much of it began inEngland. There's the Royal College of Physicians, Royal College of Surgeonsthat were founded in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries back in England. 

So some of it started fromthat and the influence. And of course, the influence that came over here, andthey obviously thought it was quite a good model. I know some of theRockefeller people took their ideas from Germany as well. So they went over toGermany-- the use of different chemicals. So it wasn't just a sudden thing.It's just been a very slow, insidious, step by step.

What is particularlydifferent about then from now is that there were people who did things adifferent way, and so it wasn't the system being imposed on them. They wereable to treat people in different ways. And one of the movements that we cameacross that people were writing about was called Natural Hygiene Movement. Itbegan in this country, in the US. I don't think it really developed anywhereelse. 

Where, as the namesuggests, the idea was to clean up the body and get rid of the bad eating andliving habits. And then people, if they followed the advice of thesepractitioners, they would be healthy, which they were. Unfortunately, most ofthose practitioners were vilified, and some of them spent time either inprison, fined, or whatever. 

The people who werespeaking out against vaccines, there were plenty in the late 19th century. Soagain, before the Rockefeller system came in, in England as well. And they usedto have public debates. Imagine that. Public debates, speaking up mainly reallyfor vaccines or not for or against.

And there was a time inEngland, the second half of the 19th century, where they had a mandatoryvaccination for all babies, all young children. The smallpox vaccine. So itbecame mandatory and it was in place for 40 years, the 40-year. So yes, wedefinitely don't want that to come back into fashion. So that didn't work becauseactually people were more real.

So it wasn't just a suddenthe Rockefellers came in. Possibly, they saw that there were opportunities ofbeing able to take over the system by being able to monopolize the treatmentsthat were given out. And of course, one of the ways to do that is actually tofind ways, as you say, to vilify all the other systems, these natural systems,and what better way than to make out that they're quacks. That's the usualword.

There were various ideasof what that word is based on, but some people say it's based on the quack.Well, the quicksilver, which is the word for mercury. So these people wereusing mercury. Some people realize it poisoned other people. You're not gettingbetter. We give you a bigger dose. We'll give you more. So these ideas were inthe background, and there were, of course, always natural healers, walks aroundthem, using the what's in nature. 

You were saying aboutdogs. Sometimes dogs and cats, if they're not feeling well, they'll just go andeat grass or something. And they know what to do. They've got this intuitiveunderstanding of how to look after their bodies. And they look to nature. Soyes, we have a lot to learn from them. 

So it's going back tonature to know what we can use, what our bodies will recognize as somethingthat will support them as it cleans, these different herbs, medicines, plantsthat will help the body cleanse itself and then come out the other side beingstronger, support the body in doing what it needs to do. And obviously,depending on your health as you're going into this cleansing or purging. 

So yeah, it's quiteinteresting. It's a huge topic. There's so much of it that is not all coveredin the book, but we give a bit of a background just to be able to help peoplesee that it goes back a long time. Again, if we are crediting the peoplecorrectly, like Hippocrates, let your food be your medicine and your medicinebe your food. Those kinds of ideas have been out there.

And it's just people whowant to be able to control what's going on, control the system, which, ifnothing else, it keeps people as perpetual customers. It's a fantastic businessmodel because what they do doesn't help the body heal. It's just suboptimalfunctioning. So your body doesn't quite work because you're suppressingsymptoms. You're pushing whatever it is further and deeper.

And so your body thensays, okay, that's not going to work a little bit later. It'll try anotherpurge and go, well, you suppress it, and you're adding more into it. And soeventually, your body's less able to function. So there's more breaking down ofwhat's going on. There's more malfunctioning of different tissues, or they'renot functioning. They're not performing optimally. 

And the longer this goeson, that's what then turns into a chronic condition. There are variousdifferent phases. And then you get the chronic conditions because the body'sjust overloaded, and it's its expression of cleansing or its processes ofcleansing have been suppressed. It's not able to do that. So that's where youget the chronic conditions that when I was looking at them, a lot of them arecalled idiopathic, which is basically a technical term for, we don't know.

That's pretty much whatthat term means. They don't know what causes it. They really don't know becausethey don't understand the body's natural processes. They say autoimmune. Oh,your body's attacking itself. Oh, it's your genes. Oh, it's this. Oh, it's justbad luck. Oh, it's hereditary. And it's just always this outside, well, wedon't know what it is, but we can give you a pill for it, as I said.

Luke Storey: [01:09:06]So it seems to me, within the medical system and pharmacology, that it's not.And I wish this wasn't true, and I hope it's not, but it seems to be, is thatnot only do many of the medications make someone a lifetime value customerbecause it doesn't heal the underlying issue, but many of these medications,namely the childhood vaccine schedule, seem to cause so much harm that theythen put someone in the position of being a lifetime value customer because ofthe actual inherent harm of that initial dose, or those initial series of dosesof that medication then cascade into all of these other problems as they livetheir life that can't really be traced back to that and directly blame tothat. 

There's a correlationthere that you can surmise, but you can't really prove in many cases. Say a kidhas his regular series of vaccines and develops some issue in their 20s. Maybethey are fine in their childhood. You don't really know, and you can't reallyprove. I think some things like autism and things, there have been more directlinks, but just the general degradation of the human body that comes perhapslater in life, depending on a kid's resilience and just inherent resistance tothat medication. 

But it seems pretty clearto me that, unfortunately, there is a nefarious agenda intentionally harmingpeople to set them up to be within that system and essentially just sap them ofall of their resources and energy for the rest of their lives.

Dawn Lester: [01:10:49]The effects of these products, whether they're vaccines, pharmaceuticals,whatever, they're called side effects. They're not direct effects. It's justside effects. That, oh, it's not the effect we expected. But I think it's trueto say that every single pharmaceutical product has a list of side effects. Andvery few people actually look at those first. And sometimes I think if theydid, they might just say, maybe I won't take this. 

It's like, side effect.Wow, that's far worse than how I'm feeling now. It doesn't mean it'll happen inevery case. So that's the point. Because we are all different, there aren'talways the same effect. It's not as straightforward, oh, give 10 people this,and they will all have X, Y, Z at this point. And it follows an absolute fixedpattern that doesn't happen because we are all different.

And with the vaccine, yes,there are side effects that can actually happen later in life. And sometimes,even if they happened pretty soon after, the medical system says, oh, nothingto do with it. That's just bad luck. It's just one of those things that youwould have got anyway. And of course, nobody can prove that that would havehappened without the vaccine.

And that's it. You can'tprove anything, and you can't prove that it was the vaccine or it would havehappened anyway. And they rely on that because there's no evidence. The otherthing is that the body's efforts to purge, small children may have all these,what are called colds or flu or whatever, runny noses, all kinds of things.And, oh, give them, is it Tylenol you have here, or amoxicillin, or whatever itis? It's a viral infection. It's a bacterial infection, or whatever itis. 

And so they'll be giventhese medicines suppress the symptoms and continually just suppressing symptomsin the small children. And maybe they might be all right for a while and justno longer express those kinds of symptoms because those processes aren'tfunctioning properly. So later on, as you say, five, 10 years later, their bodysays, okay, time to really clear this out. 

And then somewhat moreserious conditions, labels, more serious symptoms that are given these otherlabels of more serious conditions. And as you say, it's never traced back to,well, because the child had Tylenol every other month for the first five yearsof their life because they had this cold, they were prone to colds. Sotherefore, they got this medicine.

This is the whole ideathat we're indoctrinated with these ideas and made to believe in things thatare called medicine. Oh, it's medicine. Oh, I'll take that, and it make me feelbetter. And the feeling better is the mistake. Oh, the symptoms have stopped,therefore I'm better. No, the symptoms have stopped, and that doesn't mean thesame thing as, oh, I'm better.

Because, as you say quiterightly, they're not addressing the underlying cause, and they're not allowingthe body to really clear itself out. And if it is a vaccine, then, as you say,I think any anybody that's had even one vaccine can possibly claim to bevaccine-injured. I prefer not to put that out there as, oh, that that'swhatever it is, because our bodies are amazing. They can actually clear thingsout. 

And when you make thechanges and maybe have some different thoughts about what you put in and onyour body, what you allow to happen to your body, and understanding how youfeel, and again, the emotional side, the stress, all those kinds of things, andlooking after that and understanding what's going on, literally the power ofbelief, just this example of somebody I know who used to believe in the germgoing around and said, oh, every time there's a, whatever it is, a cold, oh, Ialways get it. 

And of course, they wouldbecause they've set that in the belief. And when they understood that germtheory isn't true, they go, oh, that's not about the germs. And they didn't getthe symptoms, the same symptoms. They didn't come out in sympathy with theircoworkers, or fellows, or family members because their body didn't need to dothat at the time because they'd literally changed their belief, so they weren'tinvesting in that belief system. 

And it happens. It'salways these different layers. And that's why when people say, well, if it'snot a germ, what is it? And it's like, how many hours have you got? It's notthis one, and so it's this. You just transfer that into the idea. And so that'swhy it's more complex. And it's still very interesting because we're stilllearning what affects our health, what kind of factors. 

So yes, the compromisedhealth is from these products. And it's one thing to understand, and, again, asyou say, later in life, you think, I wonder if it was a vaccine. It's not tothink, oh, there's nothing I can do because there are plenty of people who arehelping children who have received, again, a diagnosis of autism, or it's aspectrum.

There are plenty of peoplewhose children are being helped to come through that. The other thing, ofcourse, is the idea of normal. This child isn't developing normally. It's gotto match these parameters, this, that, and the other, at certain ages. Andthat's, again, compartmentalizing us into, well, we're supposed to do this atthis age. We're supposed to be this. 

And we're not these littlematerialistic blobs that we're all the same. We're all different. Allow childrento grow, and maybe that child doesn't feel like interacting with people thatday. Doesn't want to sit in the chair and listen to the teacher who's notinspiring them in any way. Maybe they're really creative, and they don't wantto deal with numbers that day. Or maybe they want to do numbers, and they don'twant to do something else.

It's not allowing for thechildren to be creative. So that can be given a label that is inappropriate,and it may not be to do with products. It may be to do with compartmentalizingand boxing a child into something that their system, their body, their mind,their whole creativity is being suppressed, and reduced, and limited.

Luke Storey: [01:17:54]Yeah, a lot of false diagnoses going on there, I think. Yeah. We're going toput links to your books and all of your work at lukestorey.com/dawn, for thoselistening, we'll put that in the show description. Before we wrap up here. Iwant to leave people with some practical tools if we can. And we can, I think,just generalize. 

But in the course of yourresearch and your own life, what have been some meaningful methods ofdetoxification, aside from obviously things we've talked about, mitigating EMF,and not putting toxins on your body and in your body, and all of that? But evenif you live a really clean life, as we discussed earlier, you're breathing airthat's being sprayed with God knows what. 

And it's just reallyimpossible to be on planet Earth just about anywhere now and not start tobioaccumulate some of this stuff. So have you looked into different fastingprotocols, or liver and gallbladder flushes, or are there thought leaders inthe space of detox or different methods that you've found to be effective forpeople?

Dawn Lester: [01:19:00]There are different ways. And because our bodies are all different, we havedifferent needs. One of the things to remember is the body actually is detoxingall the time. Just the respiration, breathing, toxins are coming out andthrough our skin. And that's one of the major detox organs. So if people havespots and rashes, it's not that they've got something. It's their body'spurging something. 

So again, through theother processes of elimination, the normal detoxing. And again, being carefulnot to overdo the efforts to detox because you can actually bring out too manytoxins into the system in one go, and that can overload the system because theprocess is work in a certain way. And if they haven't been working for a littlewhile, very well, then if you suddenly give it a lot of work to do, it'soverwhelmed. And so the processes need to be supported first. 

So there's ways to improvethe body before you then introduce an actual detox. I know Amanda Vollmer, whoyou've spoken to me, she has a whole load of different protocols and things tohelp support the body while it goes through those processes. I haven't used anyspecific protocols. Just make changes to have clean water. At the moment, it'sdistilled water. 

I would love to live neara spring where I could have fresh spring water. I don't, at the moment. So atthe moment, distilled water works for me. To eat clean food and reduceexposures, that's the first thing to do before you start any kind of protocol.And to be just aware of what you're exposing yourself to.

And if you really feelill, one of the things you do, rest and water fasts definitely can be one wayof helping your body to not put the energy into digestive system, as I wassaying, because that takes a lot of energy. So if that's not having to work,then it can actually get on with these other processes. But it will alwaysdepend on each person. And that's why it's almost impossible to make anygeneralization, because everyone's in a different space as to where theirbodies are depending on their exposures, on their health, on their mindset, andeverything else that they're doing.

And again, in terms ofnutrition, I'm not going to go into this diet thing. I know different peoplehave different diets, and one of the things that I think is important is howyou feel about your food, to enjoy your food, what you eat, and not to make ita chore. Because what you're doing is if you're kind of, I'm supposed to eatthis because it's good for me, and you're putting that reluctant energy, you'rethen putting that back into your body. 

So again, it's theenergetic and the intention that you're putting back into your body andrealizing that that is going to have an effect. So if you aren't feelingpleasure with what you're about to eat, you might need to think about that. Andso again, it's not the actual constituents of that meal. It's how you are andhow you feel and not this rush around. I'll just stuff some food in becauseit's energy. 

So again, it's not justthe actual physical food. It's the intention of what you're putting into yourbody as well. So I suppose, really to answer your question, no actualprotocols. I haven't ever looked into-- there are certain things to helpsupport your body. There are things like the tissue salts, the cell salts, tissuesalts, which are homeopathic, but they're not homeopathic remedies as such.They are providing your body with minerals, so topping up minerals.

What else? I don't haverecommendations, or suggestions, or even general idea of particular protocols becausewe are all different. So I know people try different things and see what works.If it works for you, great. What somebody else is doing or recommending. Andagain, just be aware of what you're doing and what you're trying to do. Andit's not necessarily, oh, I've got to detox. I've got to detox. Because yourbody actually is detoxing. 

And it's a question ofsupporting it while it goes through those processes. And there are loads ofprotocols out there, loads of ways. And natural substances, natural products,natural herbs, natural plants will support the body because we are connected tonature. And so your body will recognize something natural coming in, and itwill be supported by that.

Luke Storey: [01:24:29]Right on. Thank you. I love it. And for those listening, we've done tons ofshows with detox experts that have laid out their protocols and stuff. But Ithink a key distinction there that you made is that going into any detox,regardless of how intensive it is, is not anything that our body isn't alreadydoing. 

Our body's doing that 24/7for our entire lives. So it's not some unique thing that we're introducing tothe body. But of course, there are ways to do it safely and more in abioidentical sense, what you need in any given time. Your detox would lookdifferent than mine because of all sorts of contributing factors.

Dawn Lester: [01:25:12]And I'm not saying don't look at detox protocols. I don't have a particularone. I don't use anything in particular. And different people will be drawn. Soit's really to see which ones you are drawn to, because if you trust yourintuition, you trust yourself, you will find the right protocol, and you cantry it. And you think, oh, no, I didn't quite like that, or just try thesethings. 

And as I say, I'm notsaying don't. I'm just looking at the basics of how it actually works. My bodyis detoxing, and these protocols can help clean-- because I know we can beseriously overwhelmed by certain exposures. So sometimes the body needs help ina particular way because it's just suddenly really heavily overloaded. And ithappens.

Luke Storey: [01:26:12]Who have been three teachers or teachings in your life that you'd like to sharewith us?

Dawn Lester: [01:26:19]Wow. I suppose Bruce Lipton for the effect of our beliefs over our body. I cameacross that book soon after the first edition came out, so might have been 2006or '7, something like that. I can't remember exactly. So that was quite aneye-opener that we really can affect our health. Wow. He is referred to quite alot in the book.

Herbert Shelton of theNatural Hygiene Practitioner. His writings, he's quite fierce against themedical system and how toxic and bad it is, and vaccines. I wouldn'tnecessarily agree 100% with everything. However, he had success. I think he wasimprisoned. He was certainly hounded and vilified. It's amazing. He did have along life.

He was a doctor ofchiropractic and a naturopathic doctor as well. He lived through the early 20thcentury. I think he died in 1980 something. So again, it was his naturalapproach to get people off really heavy processed food and to just clean theirbodies. And they were healthy if they took his advice. Who's the third one?Wow. There were so many. It's so difficult. It's so difficult.

Luke Storey: [01:28:11]I can let you off the hook with two.

Dawn Lester: [01:28:14]It's just there are so many leading into what's been the book, also since thebook in terms of our-- I love the work of Eileen McKissick-- The HumanBiofield. And there's so much in what she says about how we are more than thebody and our biofield, and that's where our energy-- and we can do so much withthat, so yeah. 

Luke Storey: [01:28:52]I like that one because I interviewed her yesterday and had a session with herat the evening before, and I'm like, blown away. Really got me thinking andcontemplating things in a different way was really cool.

Dawn Lester: [01:29:06]Yeah, she's lovely. 

Luke Storey: [01:29:08]Yeah. Very interesting. I was like, how have I not heard of this before? Whoknows? I thought I'd just about gone through every different modality youcould, and that one was new to me.

Dawn Lester: [01:29:17]Oh, right.

Luke Storey: [01:29:17]Her work's really cool. Yeah. And Bruce Lipton too has been a big one for me.He was on the show a few years ago. I don't remember the episode number, butwe'll put it in the show notes at lukestorey.com/dawn, and then people canlisten to that one. Yeah. So I'm with you on those two. I hadn't heard of themiddle one, but now I know. 

Well, Dawn, thank you somuch for joining me today. This has been a blast. I love talking to you. I lovelistening to your accent. I love the British accent. It's probably my favorite.I don't know if it goes the same way, but I think Americans are often reallyenthralled with the British accent. I don't know if when we go over there youguys are like, ooh, I love your American accent. I never got that. But it's greatto chat with you and get to know you a bit today.

Dawn Lester: [01:29:59]Thank you. Yes, some of us like the American accent. Only there are variousdifferent accents, and there are the same in Britain. I'm from the South,originally from London, not Cockney, but that's okay. It's been lovely. WhenI've been here, the Americans say, oh, I love your accent. Within Britain,there's this whole range of accents, and the further North you go, some of themare even difficult for me to get.

Luke Storey: [01:30:32]They get trippy. Yeah. I even have a friend from Manchester. And I canunderstand him, but it's very different than a Londoner, even just that farnorth is quite different. But yeah, when I traveled there, I did notice that itstarts to meld into a Scottish accent the closer you get to Scotland. Somewherein between, there's all these permutations of the two. It's interesting. Yeah.

Dawn Lester: [01:30:57]Well, slightly further north, in Manchester, you get into the Newcastle areaand what's called the Geordie accent, and that's really strong. Some of them isjust-- I struggle sometimes to really understand them. So again, it's differentaccents. But yeah, this is my accent. It's lovely to hear because there is thislove-hate with America and Britain. I don't know. 

However, I've had nothingbut love from the people here and such a warm welcome. I'm pleased thatnobody's holding anything against me. So it's just represent. But yeah, it hasbeen interesting with how people pronounce my name. It's like when I say Dawn.Pardon?

Luke Storey: [01:31:49]Dawn?

Dawn Lester: [01:31:50]Yes. It's like, no. It's like, Dawn. It doesn't work if I say Dawn. They go,huh? So I spell it. So it's really difficult. But yes, thank you. It's justbeen brilliant. Thank you.

Luke Storey: [01:32:06]Well, enjoy the rest of your stay in America, in Texas. Hey, speaking offreedom, Texas is one of the most free states here. I don't know how freeanywhere in the world is, really. But what's the what's the area of the UK orof England specifically, I guess, that is the Texas? What region do you havethe highest number of freedom-oriented people?

Dawn Lester: [01:32:31]I don't know is the honest answer to that. I'm sorry. Yes, there may bedifferent counties that are somewhat more free than others. I can't honestlytell you. I know there are pockets where there are lots of freedom-oriented--there's a place called Brighton on the South Coast. Just little pockets. Butagain, it might be in just one part of one area. It might not be the wholecounty. It might just be little pockets where freedom-oriented people aregathering.

Luke Storey: [01:33:07]Right.

Dawn Lester: [01:33:07]But in a big city or town nearby, they're following the mainstream with thosemasks. There are still people occasionally wearing masks. It's the minoritynow.

Luke Storey: [01:33:20]Driving around in their car by themselves.

Dawn Lester: [01:33:24]Walking their dog in the fresh air.

Luke Storey: [01:33:27] 

Speaker4: [01:33:39]Thank you very much.



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