TLS - EP660 - MICHAEL TRAINER - DRAFT - VIDEO

[00:00:00] Luke Storey: Michael Trainor, my man. I was thinking about you this morning in, uh, preparation for this episode, and I, I know I've seen you a couple times since, but for some reason when I think about you or your name will come up with Allison and I think back to, uh, peyote ceremony that we shared many years ago back in LA Yeah.

[00:00:22] And I think it was the one, it was in the tiled house.

[00:00:25] Michael Trainer: Yes. Right?

[00:00:25] Luke Storey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What a crazy experience. And the funny thing is Cookie was with us that night.

[00:00:31] Michael Trainer: I remember.

[00:00:32] Luke Storey: I remember. And she was, and she was getting a little hyper. I usually, if we're gonna be in public, I'll give her some CBD or something, but she gets very, you know, animals are sensitive to energy and she was really hyped and kind of, you know, distracting people, which of course was mortifying.

[00:00:48] And, uh, the facilitator wanted to give her some peyote. I'm like, oh, she knows what she's doing, you know, so she gave cookie peyote and I remember when the sun came [00:01:00] up and then she chilled right out, you know, um, when the sun came up, I was like, okay, cookie, let's go outside. And she was high as shit, and she just like stood at the lawn.

[00:01:10] It was just frozen, I think. Kind of going, what is this? You know, daylight. Yeah. It was really fun. I'll never forget that. Look on her face. Such

[00:01:20] Michael Trainer: a,

[00:01:20] Luke Storey: such any uh, animal activist listening, I'm sorry. She was fine. Know that indigenous peoples, um, you know, very frequently give their dogs various plant medicines.

[00:01:32] Michael Trainer: Yeah. It um,

[00:01:33] Luke Storey: I can just see someone like, ah, yeah,

[00:01:36] Michael Trainer: well it was, uh, it was an in, I remember that. I remember that day. I actually haven't sat with, um, I haven't sat with that medicine for a number of years. Was just in Mexico, literally last night and had an opportunity, um, as you know, have a deep reverence for the indigenous and for that, that work I take extremely seriously.

[00:01:55] And it was interesting 'cause I was like, I really sat with it and I was like, okay. [00:02:00] And it's such a heart opening medicine and I've been really working on the heart. 'cause I feel like we're so head dominant. I mean, you and I both have been in this book writing process and so it's been a very cerebral time.

[00:02:11] And also there's been a lot of, lot of change in my life. And I was like, oh, okay, is it time to, is it time to go back? And actually what I came to was, I was like, you know what? I think, I think it's actually time for the Temescal. I think it's time for the fire. I think it's time to, to to, to no entheogenic medicine.

[00:02:31] But let me go back into the heat and let me shed and like be back in that womb that, that, that sort of, that, that, that womb of the earth. And man it's been doing, I just did three syrup te mezcals, uh, in the last month. And it, it is. Revolutionized my nervous system like I am. Yeah. Literally, I think I told you I was here in January and just got shredded by allergies and I, and I, and I literally had to [00:03:00] escape.

[00:03:00] I mean, part of what I talk about with, with the book Resonance is about like, what, what is your music? You know, what, who, what people are for you, but also what places are for you. Yeah. And what I realized was like, at least in January, Austin is not for me for whatever reason. Yeah. And I was like, where could I go?

[00:03:15] That is for me. And I felt called to Mexico, 'cause I'd lived there during the, during the pandemic. And uh, it was so enlivening for me and to go back into that place, which you and I have shared spaces like that, and to go back into for me, to the jungle and just being back in the rhythm of, of seeing the stars at night and get waking up and listening to the sound of the birds in the morning, which is probably what Cookie was doing, uh, on that magical morning and going, you know, back into these ancient technologies and these rituals and these rhythms honoring the earth, especially at, at this time, which is, is anyone listening can attest to a pretty crazy time in in our world.

[00:03:57] It was such, such a powerful medicine for me. [00:04:00] But I was reflecting on that actually on the way over here. I was like, man, I remember Luke and I talking. I mean, it must have been seven or eight years ago. 'cause you were, I remember you talking about delving into, uh, and I think it was actually an IA ceremony, but it was 'cause you were, you were actually considering, 'cause you were so earnest in your, which I really respected in your sobriety journey, and you were like really in contemplation of like, okay, is this

[00:04:28] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:04:28] Michael Trainer: In my own, in my own words, you know, like, am I, am I breaking my path or whatever?

[00:04:33] Luke Storey: Totally.

[00:04:33] Michael Trainer: And I remember us being on the phone and I was like, well, you know, I'm not one to advise one way or the other. But what I would say is, and by the way, I, you know, can totally understand moments of escaping reality, which I, which I've also done in my life.

[00:04:47] Uh, but what you're talking about is not escaping. What you're talking about is confronting and that's the difference, right? Like there's there, of course there's extasis, but like, you know, a lot of people I think, um, [00:05:00] do quote unquote drugs because they wanna escape their life. Right. Whereas when you're doing medicine, at least held in the right container, in my.

[00:05:11] Way of thinking. You're, you're doing work like you are, you're not, it's not, it's not a hunky dory fun. You know? It's, you're confronting your, your, your deepest and darkest, uh, truths and, uh, tapping back into the, the more.

[00:05:26] Luke Storey: Yeah. And

[00:05:26] Michael Trainer: that's

[00:05:26] Luke Storey: a

[00:05:26] Michael Trainer: powerful experience.

[00:05:28] Luke Storey: I always tell people, if you're looking to escape, uh, psychedelics are a terrible way to do that.

[00:05:34] Michael Trainer: Exactly. Yeah. No, there are people that try. I mean, I've definitely, especially in some of the places I've been lately, there's definitely a lot of, uh, charlatans and a lot of people wearing the clothes of spirituality and, and, and, and treating medicines like drugs, unfortunately. Um, and for those listening, be very careful of, uh, fake shamans because they are, there are a lot of 'em out there, and they open doors.

[00:05:55] They don't know how to close. And you do not want to be in those environments, but if you have the opportunity to [00:06:00] sit with, which you and I have with the real people, it's, uh, in my experience, the most profound, uh, opportunity for, for confronting your yourself and, and also recognizing there is no true self, uh, that, that, that we have, you know?

[00:06:15] And so what a what a what a gift.

[00:06:19] Luke Storey: Yeah. It's funny, um, going back to that time when we first met, yeah. I was in such a new rediscovery of the realm of psychedelics. I, I used to. With zero reverence and, and completely recklessly. Did a lot of psychedelics when I was a teenager and into my twenties before I got sober.

[00:06:43] But I was just writing about that, um, in my book. 'cause one of the things that I'm talking about, and we're here to talk about your book, but one of the most fun chapters was kind of, uh, exploring the intersection of sobriety and psychedelics, right? Mm-hmm. Which, you know, I know is starting to become a little [00:07:00] more known and people are pursuing that, you know, um, in terms of research and things like that.

[00:07:04] But when, when I, you know, left the reservation, so to speak, I was 20 years sober and it was, it was, I had to really, really reconcile that reality. And I sat on it for probably about a year.

[00:07:17] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[00:07:17] Luke Storey: You know, it wasn't something that I did willy-nilly, but to your point of facing yourself, when I was writing about, I was kind of warning about some of the risks involved, you know, which is the responsible thing to do as you just did yourself.

[00:07:29] Um, I told a couple stories about when psychedelics go wrong, you know?

[00:07:34] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[00:07:35] Luke Storey: And I realized that when I was an addict, and I would, I mean, psychedelics, you know, acid and mushrooms specifically, they, like I had, there was no differentiation between LSD and crack or mushrooms and heroin. Like they were just all drugs that I used for the same purpose.

[00:07:54] But what I realized when I was writing about it is I could never. [00:08:00] Not drink alcohol and smoke weed when I took psychedelics because I would start to be confronted with too much truth and too much reality. And so I would always have to dim that light and just, I don't know what you'd call it, just get wasted on all of it kind of combined.

[00:08:17] Even like going to dead shows. I used to go to a lot of dead shows and I'd always take acid of course. And um, there would be these moments of transcendence where I started touching something really beautiful. I mean, anyone that's seen the Grateful Dead on acid knows what I'm talking about, like as thousands of people around the world do.

[00:08:36] Right. But there's, there's some real magic there. But it would get like too much beauty if I can. That's a lack of a better way to say it, but it's like I would start to feel the presence of God and connected to people and some of the positive things that psychedelics can do for you. And because I was in such a dark place, I couldn't handle it.

[00:08:55] So I would have to, you know, try to sort of, um, quell [00:09:00] that reality. And so I never really got the benefits of working with psychedelics 'cause I was using them. I don't know there's a right way or wrong way, but I was using them try to escape. Mm. And it would just drive me deeper into myself and things would come up that I wasn't willing or able to face.

[00:09:15] So I'd have to pour a lot of alcohol on it to calm that down. So by the time, you know, I'm 20 years sober going to, um, an ayahuasca series of ayahuasca ceremonies. It was like, I. A much different experience being stone cold sober for 20 years. And that, that medicine, as you know, man, it could be quite strong.

[00:09:36] And I'll never forget when it hit, dude. I'm sitting there, I had had a little hoppe. I was just so centered, you know, just my mind was so quiet. I was so still, and I was just, I was waiting for the second. I felt a little something, you know? And I remember I was like, okay, I am feeling a little funny. You know, my eyes are closed.

[00:09:55] I'm like, shit's looking a little bit weird. And it just hit [00:10:00] like a ton of bricks. I mean, it was like, I think I feel something. Boom. I'm just like in it. And the most beautiful thing was I started thinking about my sobriety. Mm. I was like, fuck, what did I just do? Am I okay? And then I asked God, I guess, fuck, am I still sober?

[00:10:20] And this voice, you know, as the voice is, it's kind of your own voice, but maybe from your soul or a higher place of wisdom, it said, you have never been more sober in your entire life as you are right now in this moment. And I got it. I knew what it meant exactly. And from that moment on, I was totally free.

[00:10:42] Michael Trainer: Mm.

[00:10:42] Luke Storey: You know, and I've been able to have many of those experiences and never been anywhere close to wanting to drink or do hard drugs or. Any, any substances with which I had a problem before. So it's like such a paradox that, um, [00:11:00] using mind altering substances has been the most supportive thing to my sobriety.

[00:11:08] Michael Trainer: Mm.

[00:11:08] Luke Storey: Such a strange paradox. I mean, it is, it is strange and it's not, it's like, well, duh. Makes perfect sense, you know? But anyway, that's a whole other conversation I want to ask you about. Um, 'cause we're, when you reached out to me a few months ago or whenever that was, you know, Hey, let's do a podcast again.

[00:11:25] I just wrote a book about loneliness and I was like, God damnit, I'm writing a book about loneliness. Right? It wasn't like competitive, but I thought, oh man, I hope they're not the same. You know? And then so I got the, the galley copy of yours and I was like, oh, you know, we took a different approach to this.

[00:11:39] Um, and I'm really excited to read yours. I wish, I know we're like days away from having a physical copy here. And we will, uh, put it in the show notes for people. Please buy his book. 'cause we were just talking for about an hour, like how hard it is to write your own book and not use a ghost writer. Um, you'll find that at luke strai.com/trainer three.

[00:11:58] The number three. But here's what I'll ask [00:12:00] you. It struck me so many times in the past couple years through this process, how the co like the cosmic giggle and writing a book about loneliness, connection, separation. When actually doing that work is so solitary.

[00:12:19] Michael Trainer: Yeah,

[00:12:20] Luke Storey: right. It's like you don't, like, you might have a meeting with an editor or you might have a co-writer or something like that, but like, when it comes down to the actual writing, you are freaking alone.

[00:12:30] Michael Trainer: Totally.

[00:12:30] Luke Storey: And thankfully, you know, as you know, my wife Allison wrote a book. So had, we'd probably be divorced if that wasn't the case because the shit she put up with my process is like, so intense. I mean, I shut my office door, I'm in there for 10, 12 hours. Like sure, you know, she comes in, I'm like, ah, you know, it's like, leave me alone.

[00:12:50] This is my process. Um, but it's very, it's very lonely to me. It was very lonely writing a book because there's so much time spent alone, and I'm [00:13:00] digging so deep. I'm, you know, my mind is kind of memoir based. I'm like reliving all these things in my past that are less than comfortable at times, but also just, it's lonely because no one understands.

[00:13:11] My friends are like, dude, why aren't you, aren't you done yet? Like, what's going? I'm like, you don't get it. You know? It's like, I don't think people understand. I don't know. Maybe if you're, if you did well in school and you're educated, it might be easier. I mean, I only finished seventh grade, so, you know, I'm not being self-deprecating, but like, I'm not a scholarly kind of guy.

[00:13:33] You know what I mean? But it's like so difficult because no one. Understood, like what I was doing and why it was taking so long. And I was just like, this is so crazy. I'm writing a book about loneliness and it's like the loneliest project I've ever done in my entire creative career. So what was it like for you writing a book about loneliness and connection in terms of just doing so much of it alone?

[00:13:59] Did [00:14:00] you find that same irony?

[00:14:01] Michael Trainer: A hundred percent. I mean, it's, it's, it's beautifully said and it's totally true. Uh, for me it, it was, I mean, it was a ceremony in its own regard. It was a six year journey into, you know, the, the Joseph Campbell talks about, of course, the hero's journey, right? And it's, there's always a descendants before the ultimate transcendence, and we see that in myth.

[00:14:27] And for me, writing a, a book was deeply con confronting. I mean, you shared a little bit about your journey for me. I mean, I, as a, as a young boy, I was tracked. I went to a public school in Chicago and I was tracked in like the learning disabled. Uh, I was like me, three, four kids. And I remember walking by the smart kids, you know, in the other room.

[00:14:51] And the irony is what they call is visual perceptual ld. It's actually my great gift, like my empathy, my, but in the [00:15:00] system, um, it was tracked as a disability. And so part of the journey for me about writing a book was transcending that narrative.

[00:15:08] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:15:08] Michael Trainer: My own

[00:15:09] Luke Storey: Yeah,

[00:15:10] Michael Trainer: you just a, a me versus me journey, right?

[00:15:12] Yeah. Like, uh,

[00:15:13] Luke Storey: totally.

[00:15:14] Michael Trainer: You know? Um, and I had, I had done plenty of, you know, I, you know, I did wind up doing very well in school and getting a Fulbright scholar. I got, uh, I had accolades that sort of showed me that that wasn't the case. But there's still, like, when you're imprinted at like, you know, 6, 7, 8 years old, it, uh, it has an effect.

[00:15:32] And so for me it was absolutely lonely and it was also confronting those moments of the deepest aspects of my loneliness so that I could be of service. Right. Because, you know, you, you mentioned ceremony when, when we started, and one of the things I, I like to share the book is called Resonance. And it's about this notion of how, what is the music that wants to live in the space between [00:16:00] people and how do we become instruments for that song?

[00:16:03] And music is such a, a medicine for me, and I, I think for all of us, right? I mean, there's, there's so many ways in which we don't fully understand the power of music. But my father, uh, who had dementia, it's an incredible film for anyone listening, uh, called Alive Inside Watch it. It's one of the best films you'll ever see.

[00:16:23] But there's this one scene where there's this man who also has dementia. He's nonverbal. He hasn't spoken for years. He's left basically for dead in a nursing home. And another man takes the time to find out what his favorite songs were when he was a kid. And he creates a playlist and there's a scene where he goes into this nursing home and this man is in his wheelchair in the corner, left alone, talk about loneliness.

[00:16:55] And he takes the playlist that he had put together for this man of his favorite songs, [00:17:00] and he puts the headphones over this man's ears. Keep in mind, he hasn't spoken for years. I remember 1939, she whoa. Starts to talk, starts to sing, is fully lucid. There is no. Drug medicine, pharmaceutical intervention on the planet that can proximate what music did.

[00:17:25] And, and they, and they did a time and, and again with, with, with elders, with neurological uh, conditions. And so I share that story because I saw that with my own father. And the way that we still found each other as he sort of sailed further from the shore with dementia was we would connect through music.

[00:17:44] And music was the way to, you know, Ramdas has that beautiful saying, we're all just walking each other home. Music to me is the great calling home. And so with the book, it was, it was, I had to touch the [00:18:00] loneliness because I, I wanted to be in empathy and to be able to relate from a place of authenticity.

[00:18:08] You know, I think there's so many people out there trying to teach things they've never actually experienced. And, and that's dangerous in my view. Whereas if you can talk humbly and authentically about your experience, and I've been deeply lonely in my life, you know, I mean deeply lonely. I talk in the book, there's a, a story, which I won't go into great detail here, but my first experience a abroad, which is now my, one of my great passions traveling, but I was, I was 12 years old on a study abroad program, and I was jumped by a gang.

[00:18:38] So I was violently beaten by over 20 guys. And I developed what was called like an obsessive compulsive personality. And basically it was an anxiety disorder where I would ritualize my behavior to try to bring about a sense of safety in a now seemingly unsafe world. And the way that that was approached at the time [00:19:00] was, Hey, you should take this medication.

[00:19:01] And I said, okay, well, I don't wanna take medication for the rest of my life and just live in fear. Not to say that it's wrong, but that's not I, I'd rather, you know, what do I need to do to actually transcend this? And they said, well, basically the only thing you can do is what we call exposure therapy, where you, you have to confront the thing that scares you the most.

[00:19:20] I was like, okay, take

[00:19:23] Luke Storey: boxing classes.

[00:19:24] Michael Trainer: Yeah, yeah. Like if you're scared, if you're scared, you know, like you're scared of a snake, you gotta get like a foot closer to that, you know that snake? Yeah. You have 12 feet away. So not one for half measures. I was like, all right. Um, I'm deeply scared of, and now have created this isolation, right?

[00:19:40] So like I went, went deep within and was extraordinarily lonely. And what they said was, you gotta go as deep into your fear as possible. And so for me, I. I decided to travel as far from my reality as I possibly could. I grew up in Chicago and I [00:20:00] went and lived in the country of Sri Lanka, which I knew nothing about, but was at the time a country.

[00:20:05] I met Civil War, but yet it was this deeply spiritual, one of the oldest living Buddhist civilizations on the planet. Incredible, uh, incredibly deep culture. And I went and lived there for two years, um, at 18 years old and wound up living with the seventh generation healer and was invited. I mean, it was quite magical the way it unfolded.

[00:20:27] I was actually on an island my first day on the coast, and water has always held a deep meaning for me. And this beautiful young boy comes out of the ocean, literally in front of me with a spear and a tiger octopus and goggles. Literally, it was like I, I, I can see it clear as day, and he literally hands me the goggles.

[00:20:50] I speak at this point, I've been living with the family for like four months in the, in the mountains. So I spoke to some SLA and he invites me to swim out to this island. So I put these [00:21:00] goggles on and I'm swimming with this young man out to this island, and we get out to this island and the, it was a study abroad program, so the, the other students had kind of taken a boat out and.

[00:21:14] I see for the first time in my life this man who is crushing chilies and garlic, and this woman is next to him and she's shaking side to side and she's speaking like, you know, you've probably seen movies of like people speaking in tongues I'd never seen in, in, in, in real life. What I witnessed on that day, which is a woman.

[00:21:41] Keep in mind, this is a, this is a tamal woman in a country amid civil war. And my professor who just arrived by boat is like his jaws on the floor because it's a tamal woman speaking classical singhalese, which would be like all of a sudden if I just started speaking like ancient Zulu, like some language, there's [00:22:00] no way realistically that I should know.

[00:22:02] And he was one of five people probably in the country that understood what she was saying. And I saw for the first time the power of ceremony in terms of the invocation of what is possible. And, and she was amidst this deep healing journey where she was entranced speaking a language. Theoretically she should not know how to speak.

[00:22:21] And that day I was invited to study with a man who was a seven generation healer in a tradition that's a very secret form of Ayurvedic shamanism. And I thought I was just going to study mass carving. I, you know, I was very interested. My great-grandfather was a Swedish, uh, carver and I got introduced through the mask.

[00:22:42] Into this world of ritual healing. And where I had developed an obsessive compulsive personality to assuage my anxiety, which was called neurotic because I grew up in the west where that, that didn't have any community or socio, you know, sociological, uh, religious [00:23:00] aspect in which I could make sense of ritual.

[00:23:02] I was just creating it on my own. I would check the doorknob, I would check the stove. I was trying to assuage my anxiety through ritual, which has been done since time immemorial. It's just now in the West, in this individual censored society. I didn't have a place in which that could be expressed authentically and naturally.

[00:23:20] And here confronting my fear by going as far away from my familiarity, as far away from my reality as possible. I then got invited into this truly magical, I, I didn't, I still to this day am blown away because I've met people who have tried to find what I wound up studying, and, and they've lived in, in that area of the world for decades, and they'd never found it.

[00:23:43] And they were like, how did you find it? And I was like, I didn't, Fife came to me. And, and basically in that culture, there was no word traditionally for privacy. There was no word for possession. So if I was like, Luke, could you pass me that glass? It would be Luke [00:24:00] Glasscock DeWanda, which is Luke is there unto you, a glass, you can pass this way and, and it, so you don't own anything.

[00:24:07] Nothing is yours and. So that note, it was the first time I was introduced to a truly collectivist orientation, right? Which is so common amongst the indigenous, and I've now seen subsequently in, in, in ceremony. But when one person, my, my teacher taught me, and I read about this in the book, when he, when he talked about dis-ease, he talked about it as balance.

[00:24:33] He said, health is the heart rhythm, it's the rhythm of the heart, and we all have a rhythm, right? For the first nine months of our life, we are in the darkness with nothing but the rhythm of our mother's heart. Like that is, that is how we come into to being and to knowing. And the community shares a heart rhythm.

[00:24:59] [00:25:00] And when someone loses their way, they've, they've come out of tune just like a symphony, right? If a violin is out of tune, you can, you can tell immediately, but when a symphony is totally in sync, when it's in resonance, it has profound capacity. The sum of the parts are exponential. It's something more. He said, when someone falls out, he was basically like the seal team six for like if everything else has failed, like you bring this person here and we will literally create, and they would spend two weeks, they would create a whole palm fraud city.

[00:25:31] So if someone was deeply lonely, if they had, if they had, if they had lost their way, if they had fallen out of rhythm, they would put them in the center of the circle and they would create all around them this elaborate palm fraud city with flower altars and fire walking. And from sunset to sunrise, they would be danced around and slowly they would be brought back into rhythm with the heartbeat of the collective.

[00:25:58] Luke Storey: Wow.

[00:25:59] Michael Trainer: [00:26:00] And that was my introduction to you are not alone. And not only that, like we've got your back. And to be welcomed as an outsider into that sacred container and to see the effect, to see someone who had f. Fallen far from their way, fallen far from the rhythm, who had lost, who had lost touch with that heartbeat being brought back into the heartbeat and back into the collective.

[00:26:34] And in their worldview, it wasn't like, oh, that person's lost their way. You know, it was, I, I welcome the no, no k Coi, uh, Amazonian Tribe to Venice, California. And they said, and it was their first time ever out at the Amazon. And they walk around and as you know, having lived in LA there's homeless and there's people on meth and all kinds of things.

[00:26:52] And the way they described it was powerful. 'cause I, I asked 'em, what do you think about the homeless? And they don't have a concept of homeless, right? Because in a [00:27:00] collectivist society, no one is, no one falls through the cracks. No one's allowed to, to lose themselves, to get lost in the loneliness. And they said, yeah, there are people here with their souls living outside of their body.

[00:27:14] And I thought that that was such a powerful way to describe the social ill that is now, unfortunately, I think, the true pandemic of our time, which is this pandemic of loneliness, of isolation, of, of people who have lost their sense of rhythm with the collective. And that is for sure, or was for sure me, and, and in confronting the darkness and going as far from my reality into a country at war, ironically, getting invited into this secret and sacred, uh, cultural tradition.

[00:27:48] I also transcended my own loneliness and was brought in and, and remembered my own rhythm, and was brought in to a place where I felt a home that I never had known. You [00:28:00] know? And, and I, my neurosis was gone. I mean, to this day, I'm no longer obsessive compulsive. I have no, you know, pharmacological needs.

[00:28:10] Like, there's no, there's no, uh, remnants of that. And I think sometimes I, you know, I did some ceremony work with another guy by the name of Martine Pretzel, who wrote a book called Secrets of the Talking Jaguar and Disobedience of the Daughter of the song. And it was during a dark night of the soul after a deep breakup.

[00:28:30] And he said to me something that was really beautiful, he said, and you'll appreciate this given your book, and I have a deep love of horses. The, the first thing when I came outta my trauma from at 12 years old was I went to horses and did equine therapy. And that was Oh,

[00:28:44] Luke Storey: really?

[00:28:44] Michael Trainer: Yeah. I write about it in the book.

[00:28:45] It was the heartbeat of the horse was actually my first medicine. But he said to me, pain is the horse that beauty rides. Ooh, pain is the horse that beauty rides. And I was deep in pain, so I [00:29:00] was like, Ooh, okay,

[00:29:01] Luke Storey: that's good.

[00:29:03] Michael Trainer: Yeah, I sat with that and I, I, I go back to that frequently and he said that the shit, like, the shit you're going through, if you deal with it.

[00:29:11] Beautifully becomes the compost for your new garden, your next garden. You know? And I was going through this deep dark period, and so those metaphors of like, okay, I'm riding the horse and then I'm sowing new seeds, I'm sowing new soil. And like the magic that happened, I mean, that, that was that retreat I remember there was, we went to make offerings after we'd done this collective work together.

[00:29:34] We literally did this incredible weekend where we, we built a house together, talk about any loneliness. Literally all of us came together and built basically a, a, a structure, a home through ceremony. And we took parts of that home as spiritual offerings to make. And he suggested doing it where the river meets the ocean, which for me is a deeply meaningful place.

[00:29:56] And I went in Casper in Northern California. We were talking about Cali [00:30:00] earlier. And I went at sunset to make my offering. And literally as I placed it and touched it on the ground, two sea lions, not a foot in front of me came up and like literally greeted the house and then sank back into the ocean.

[00:30:19] And so it's like, you know, we talk about these things like synchronicities, but I feel like it was an introduction into the music and the music that wants to live and that that's always present around us, you know? And especially for me in nature. To be able to go back or in community, to be able to go back into these containers, these contexts where we're reminded of who we truly are.

[00:30:46] And then from that rested place, when we have our regulated nervous system and we come to a place of offering, which is another integral aspect as, you know, deeply in ceremony, which I also talk about as a basis for, for kind of this [00:31:00] journey home. But when we enter back into a place of being an offering, the way that the world comes to greet us, the way that the music starts to play with us, um, is, is truly beautiful.

[00:31:10] So, uh, thank you for indulging me in a, in a few stories. But yeah, that was, uh, great. That was, but that was part of the, part of the journey,

[00:31:17] Luke Storey: so. Cool. Where were you when you got beat? Up

[00:31:20] Michael Trainer: in Spain? Yeah, in Spain, in the southern coast of Spain. It was my first experience ever leaving the country. And I just remember the last thing that my parents said is, I got on the plane, were, do not get any trouble.

[00:31:33] Things worked differently over there. That's what they said. And my host brother, um, literally had like something taken from him and I just went up and was like, you know, wanted to have his back because I was like, you know, I, I wasn't threatening. I was just like, what's going on? And the next thing I knew, I got a right, like a right hand to the jaw.

[00:31:50] And I had no idea that the guy he was talking to was like a gang member in town and like. It wasn't just him. There was like 30 guys, like [00:32:00] way older and way bigger. And I didn't even, it was a study abroad program. Literally, the mother forbade me from even going to the school. Like it was like serious. And yeah.

[00:32:09] So it was a, it was a, it was a pretty intense experience. And now, which I think is true for many of us, if we actually confront the things that scare us or we confront our traumas, it can become the medicine for our lives. Right. And now traveling is one of my great joys. Um, but if I had stayed in that fear, yeah, I, I don't know where I'd be today.

[00:32:32] Luke Storey: Beautiful. Um, I like that idea of, um, exposure therapy. You know, I mean, obviously everyone's gotta find their own way with it. It's not something I'd be like, yeah, the thing you're traumatized about, walk into the middle of it. But

[00:32:48] Michael Trainer: yes, that's true.

[00:32:49] Luke Storey: I've had many experiences where, um, I've even revisited locations where, you know, really traumatic things happen and gone back as an adult.

[00:32:58] And I think [00:33:00] after spending so many years of just. Stuffing all of those memories and trying to run from them. When I started to address them, I was compelled to address them as head on as possible.

[00:33:12] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[00:33:12] Luke Storey: You know, and sometimes just going back to a place that I would never even want to think about, let alone go there and go and just be in the space.

[00:33:20] You know, just sit there and go, wow, you know, how can I change my perspective of something that happened in the past by being a different person in the present? I think there's a lot of value in that. 'cause otherwise, the, the, it's like the pattern can't be undone. That's right. You know, it's like that seems to be the way and um, you know, not that you always have to go physically to the place or see the person, but, um, I found that to be really helpful too.

[00:33:45] You know, just kind of doing the counterintuitive thing, which is like my nervous system's going do anything but that. And I'm like, that's exactly where we're going. Yeah. Let's walk into it. Um, something [00:34:00] that I've found really interesting too, in the process of, um, trying to tackle such a massive problem that so many people face is that, um.

[00:34:12] You know, the way I think about loneliness is kind of in two categories, and one would be more relational, interpersonal, and one would be just existential. You know, feeling cut off from all that is kind of disconnected from consciousness or at least perceiving oneself to be. One thing that's been interesting for me is that as I've felt over the past many years, like more connected to God and feel a more consistent, I don't know, just felt sense that I'm part of something bigger.

[00:34:50] The impact of that has been that there are fewer people that I really relate to or feel [00:35:00] called to spend, you know, intimate quality time with.

[00:35:03] Michael Trainer: Totally.

[00:35:03] Luke Storey: It's a very interesting paradox, right? It's like, oh, I'm feeling much more connected to all that is and just have a, a sense that, um, with the timeless part of myself, right?

[00:35:16] Michael Trainer: Yes.

[00:35:17] Luke Storey: And so that makes the world much less threatening. Much less stressful. 'cause it's like in the buffo space for example, you know, it's like you go there and it's like, oh, this is just nothing that I ever worry about is real. Right? It's kind of like having an NDE or something. You know, people come back from those often and they're just, so many of their fears are just dissolved by that experience.

[00:35:39] And so it's been interesting to me trying to acclimate to feeling more connected to God, but find that the road gets narrower and there are fewer people that I really feel drawn to in that way. So it's like more, I'm more lonely interpersonally, but less [00:36:00] lonely existentially. Does that make sense?

[00:36:02] Michael Trainer: Beautifully said. I feel, I feel very similarly, you know, like I think we were, we were talking when I first walked in. I, I used to have, you know, I'm, I'm, it's interesting because sometimes I'll actually get caught up. 'cause I, I'll think about, oh, you know, my friend Andrew, for example, was like, oh, trainer, you know, I, I'm every social gathering.

[00:36:23] I know I'm gonna see you there. Right? Like, there was a, there was a period in my life, which, which, which was beautiful where I did, I found that medicine in, in lots of different people. And I was a man about town, mayor of Venice, whatever you want to call it, or that that's what called instead of me at the time.

[00:36:38] And I feel night, I just came back from literally 40 days, which I do these 40 day kind of biblical retreats into na, natural Places.

[00:36:46] Luke Storey: I'm jealous, bro.

[00:36:47] Michael Trainer: Dude, I just went, literally was in the jungle and, and I,

[00:36:50] Luke Storey: I'm so starved for nature at the moment.

[00:36:53] Michael Trainer: It, so that's, to, to your point, that's where I feel most connected.

[00:36:59] But yet I [00:37:00] was, I wasn't like, I was a, a full monastic. I, I would definitely see people, but I was definitely not, you know, it wasn't like, you know, surrounded by close friends. But the beauty of it is, and, and like you said, it feels maybe at times paradoxical, but I, I, I felt the l the least lonely I've felt in a long time.

[00:37:23] And I think part of it is also, and I talk about this concept of, you know, basically the, the way I structure the book is twofold. First is about the, the first half is really about how do we come into right relationship with ourselves. Right. 'cause so many of us are trying to go off and find our other half or find the person who completes us, right?

[00:37:43] Which is a fallacy in and of itself, right? But these, you know, these Hollywood movies we've been, we've kind of been indoctrinated into, and it's, it's like looking for, it's like a hungry ghost. We're looking for this, something outside of ourselves to complete us. But, you know, we know that, that actually this [00:38:00] is an internal job.

[00:38:01] But until we know what is our true north, until we know what it is that we're sailing towards, then oftentimes we're, we're building relationships that aren't, that aren't authentic to our vision and our values. Right? And so those off, those, those generally, you know, when I lived in New York, I had so many party friends.

[00:38:22] I call 'em party friends, right? I, I had, you know, it would seem like I was, you know, Mr. Social also helped that I threw a, a, a large music festival and, and you know, there were a lot of people reaching out for tickets come September, which was beautiful and I love that. But I also realized, God forbid if I ever wound up in the hospital or if I needed, you know, I'm hiring movers, but if I needed help moving, you know, if I needed things that weren't sexy to do, there were very few people that would show up for me.

[00:38:51] You know? And that was a reckoning when I actually had to do an audit of my relationships and a lot of great people, lot of, [00:39:00] when it was fun, we were having a lot of fun together. You know, a lot of, a lot of lot. But. There, there was a moment, and I had a reckoning in my own life where I was like, okay, I'm on the circuit now.

[00:39:11] Like I'm, you know, I'm in Tulum for New Year now, where it's January, I'm at, uh, Sundance, and then February I met Zak and I was, and I would see the same people and all these places, and it was, it sound, it sound, it sounded to me at the time, sexy. And I felt so alone in a way. And I think we're most alone when we're surrounded by people, but we don't feel an authentic connection to those people.

[00:39:38] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:39:39] Michael Trainer: I think that's way more, uh, lonely. And, and we, we, we. Now it's especially insidious and especially dangerous because we have these digital approximations of what we think other people are experiencing, right? Which we've never had. Right? Terrence McKenna said the world has changed more in the LA since 1992 than [00:40:00] it did in the previous thousand years, right?

[00:40:02] I mean,

[00:40:03] Luke Storey: probably many thousands,

[00:40:05] Michael Trainer: many, many, many thousands of years, right? Yeah. So we're, we're in this great experiment, right? W you know, and that, that's just talking about the internet, right? The, the advent of the internet, not even talking about artificial intelligence, right? So like, we're moving in exponential ways that our biology is not accustomed to.

[00:40:22] And, you know, the research shows basically that we, we regulate together, you know, the peop we aren't just like, it's not just the vibes of like people we're in relationship with. We become like the people we surround ourselves with, biologically, psychologically, we literally regulate each other's nervous systems or disregulate each other's nervous systems, right?

[00:40:44] So one of the things I talk about is this notion of dissonance and like, yes, there's resonance. And resonance is, is how do we resonance is. I will describe it musically. I, I, I, I describe it in a variety of ways, but it's [00:41:00] like when you're watching your favorite band perform and you look around and everyone is absorbed in the song, no one, I mean, now it's harder because everyone's using their cell phones, but like, you know, go back and look at a, uh, you know, I, for example, this is not a band that I particularly have deep resonance with, but I was just watching this video of The Prodigy in 1992 and they were performing for 300,000 people.

[00:41:22] And they're playing that like, Don don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. And like, you know, like, I dunno, they're like czechoslovak or something. And I'm just looking at this sea of like, you know, like 400,000 people just moving with the music, you know, and there's not a phone in sight. And, you know, that, that moment is, is something that those people will never forget.

[00:41:45] Right. That to me, is resonance. Now the interesting piece is that may not be resonance for someone else, and that's why I like this notion, right? It's like when I was a teenager, that probably would've been resonance for me. Now, put a Prodigy concert in front of me, I'll be walking as far in the [00:42:00] other direction as possible, right?

[00:42:01] Like, ance for me is like, if someone's playing nineties hip hop, I'm in, you know, someone's playing classical music. I'm in, you know, someone's playing some heavy metal. I'll be as far from that as possible. Doesn't mean heavy metal's bad, by the way. Doesn't mean I disrespect or like, you know, and I mean that literally and metaphorically.

[00:42:19] Right? And I think that's another way to look at it, is there's a discernment that comes once we know our true north. Once we know what music is, our music, and what music is for us, then we can, we can navigate and invest in the relationships that bring us to life in the music that, that calls us forward.

[00:42:40] Because I think a lot of us go through life kind of choosing just based on proximity. Who did I go to school with? You know, who's my neighbor? You know? Um, and, and those people might not be the people that invoke your greatest song, right? Like, think about The Beatles, right? John Paul, Rick, they were incredible individual musicians, but [00:43:00] together they were something more, you know?

[00:43:02] Yeah. They were the exponential, more of the Beatles, which has touched all of our lives. And it's my belief that each of us have just like a fingerprint. Each of us have our own unique song, or each uni each have our unique note and the, and the world's consciousness. Gaia is waiting for us to express that note so that the symphony that is awaiting for that song can, can materialize fully the more that wants to live through us, us as vessels.

[00:43:37] Can be realized. You know, that's what I've seen in ceremonial work. It's right. It's like how, I don't love the word awakening. I think it has the place, but I love the word remembering. It's like, how do we remember who we truly are? The love that we, you know, just like that, that, that, that child listening to the heartbeat, right?

[00:43:54] To go back to that notion of our heart rhythm. How do we, how do we remember who we authentically [00:44:00] are and how from that place can we find the ones that resonate with our song?

[00:44:05] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:44:05] Michael Trainer: And to me that's the antidote to loneliness. Yeah. That's the true antidote is like, okay, it's not about, it's not about the visuals.

[00:44:12] The Instagram, everyone's at the sexy party. It's like, okay, what? And your unique note might be like, Napoleon Dynamite might be like some freaky, weird, amazing thing, you know, where you're like, you found like your song, you know, where that set scene where like Napoleon puts on the mixtape and like all of a sudden his awkward just becomes epic.

[00:44:31] You know? It's like where does your awkward become epic? You know? And who are the people dancing? You know, those are your people, right? Those are your people. Yeah. And I feel like that's the thing is a lot of us chase a certain notion of who we think our people are based on society, social projections, status, some things hard, you know, hardwired passed down generationally.

[00:44:53] But I think the, the true revolutionary act is to actually pay attention to what. [00:45:00] Our unique expression is, and it changes, right? And being in the dance with that and finding the people that, that bring you to life, that bring you to your song and that you wanna dance with.

[00:45:12] Luke Storey: Beautiful. I love, uh, what you were talking about earlier too, about realizing you have a lot of friends.

[00:45:20] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[00:45:21] Luke Storey: You know, but who are you gonna call in, in the moment? You know, we all have the moment and, um, I, I would rather have three really true friends that are right or die than 3000, you know, so-called friends on the periphery. Totally. As I heard, a wise man once say, um, a friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body

[00:45:52] Michael Trainer: and, and a friend that makes you laugh is worth its weight in gold. Yeah. That's another thing I'll say, like, you know, there's a lot of, and I know you have a lot of folks here also, you [00:46:00] know, and not to go too farfield, but when I think about authenticity and I think there's a lot of inauthenticity in the world and spiritual communities and whatnot, one thing I'll say is, who makes you laugh?

[00:46:13] You know, like, yeah. And who can laugh at themselves, you know? 100%. One of the things that my mom said to me is like, you know, like, you know, basically she's like, you know, if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at? And you know, and that was when I had the honor to host his Holiness when I was, which was a spiritual lesson.

[00:46:30] 'cause I was trying to make my dad proud and I realized he would've been just as proud if I took him down the street for an ice cream. But needless to say, that was a whole nother lesson. But the thing that I got from that was. Uh, wow. The, the way that the Dalai Lamo moved through space, acknowledging everyone and everything, like literally took a moment and was just like, with the plant and always smiling and then making fun of himself and making like poking fun.

[00:46:52] Like, not actually like in a way that that was, um, that was hurtful to someone else. But like, just that desire and [00:47:00] wanting for other people to laugh and meet someone in laughter. To me, that's the real ones are like the, the, the, the ones who are leading you to laughter.

[00:47:09] Luke Storey: I talk about that a lot on the podcast when it comes to, um, spiritual teachers.

[00:47:14] Yeah, spiritual leaders. A huge red flag for me is a lack of humor.

[00:47:19] Michael Trainer: Totally.

[00:47:20] Luke Storey: And maybe they might be great for someone else, but a red flag for me in terms of someone with whom I feel resonance, um, the, the true teachers that I've had throughout my life have been hilarious and didn't take themselves seriously at all.

[00:47:35] Michael Trainer: Yep.

[00:47:36] Luke Storey: You know, and I even had, one of those teachers used to tell me, he said, man, watch out for people that don't have a sense of humor. They're dangerous.

[00:47:43] Michael Trainer: Totally

[00:47:43] Luke Storey: dangerous. And he goes, yeah, they're unconscious. They're wrapped up in their, in their head. Yeah. You know, they're so ego identified and people that are ego identified are unconscious, you know?

[00:47:53] And so he said, be careful. And I never forgot that, but it's been true. And that to me is like. It [00:48:00] always a great sign that someone is really tapped in. Totally. I mean, there's a moment to be serious, right? I mean, there's moments that are, require more reverence and, and uh, and all that. But I think it's a really great quality to be able to laugh at yourself.

[00:48:17] I like to do embarrassing shit on purpose that my ego hates just to totally keep myself humble,

[00:48:22] Michael Trainer: keeping in check.

[00:48:23] Luke Storey: I did an episode here a couple months ago. I have this big, uh, CO2, um, suit.

[00:48:28] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[00:48:28] Luke Storey: You know, you wear this big, it's like a big inflatable wetsuit like Michelin man, and you fill it up with CO2 and you know, it's got all these health benefits.

[00:48:36] It's very relaxing. Um, but it's, it's super embarrassing. Like, I wouldn't want to be, I'm not on Instagram with that, you know? Right. And I felt like doing one and I wanted to talk about it on the show. So Alice and I, we record, uh, an episode every month together, you know, just either an a MA or a chat. And I thought, you know what?

[00:48:54] The fact that I'm embarrassed that I get in that suit means that I need to do it. And [00:49:00] so I sat right here and hosted, you know, did a whole episode in the, in the blue suit. And it was so fun for me, you know? 'cause I know I don't know anything, but I would guess there would be certain people that might see a clip of that on Instagram.

[00:49:11] Like, this fucking guy, you know, like, it's like I was getting a kick out of the fact that I was probably gonna instigate a few people to like, talk shit about me or judge me. Right? Sure. It's like, oh, that's actually really good because the. The persona that they would be making fun of or talking shit about, or judging, is not who I am anyway.

[00:49:33] Any more than the blue suit is who I am. Right.

[00:49:36] Michael Trainer: Totally.

[00:49:36] Luke Storey: So it's like, oh, cool. I can actually use that as a way to get some separation between who and what I really am and the thing that I project out into the world as my personality that they call Luke's story. So it's, I like doing things like that, that are just ridiculous, that are uncomfortable, but not so uncomfortable that they're like, traumatizing.

[00:49:57] Right, right. I'm not gonna walk through an airport [00:50:00] naked or something. Right. But like silly things like that I think are useful and kind of keep me down to earth

[00:50:06] Michael Trainer: the, I think that's, to me, that's a great signal of the real ones. What, like one, there's two things to that, right? Like I love that you do things to, to break your own ego, right?

[00:50:16] Like, I've done similar things, you know, things where I'm like just, okay, let me just confront, like I'm gonna go on Santa Monica Pier and do some like, and I've done this, you know, like random acts of just like things that I don't feel comfortable doing at all, but just because I want, I don't wanna get too caught up in this construct of who I think I should be, right?

[00:50:36] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:50:36] Michael Trainer: And, and the second thing is I think this notion of the real ones, like I love what we were saying about the spiritual community, right? 'cause I think. I, I'm almost allergic now. Like I, if I get, because there's so many things I like, you know, but I, I'm so hesitant to go to things because I don't know if the person leading it is actually embodied and I, and therefore I can [00:51:00] walk away feeling less good than when I walked in.

[00:51:03] Um, going in and being kind of guided in a room in a, in a way that isn't held beautifully. And I, when you were talking, I thought about, um, Jerry Nelson. I dunno if you, did you ever, did you ever meet Jerry? So what I love about Jerry, so Jerry's a real one. Jerry is Dne, uh, Navajo, big guy, like, you know, big guy.

[00:51:29] And I met him and I, we sat down and I treated him to his first acai bowl. It was, uh, actually at a, the AWA gathering. And he was cracking jokes. I literally could, I, I was rolling, laughing right now. Jerry is dressed in a trucker's hat, a t-shirt, shorts. Why do I say that? I say that because what many don't know is that Jerry is also one of [00:52:00] the most adept road man you can imagine.

[00:52:05] Like, this is a, this is a man that holds. Beautiful space and is highly experienced, but he's not adorning himself. There's no virtue signaling. He's not wearing, you know, the clothes of spirituality. You know, he's not fronting anything. There's no you to know. You've gotta know. And I remember, I mean, I sat, I had the honor to sit in a couple of containers with him, but I remember first sitting in a sweat, a sweat lodge with him.

[00:52:36] And the way this is, this to me is like a, a marker of the real ones. The way that he was listening, not just to the words that people shared, but he was listening to their body language, you know? Mm.

[00:52:51] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:52] Michael Trainer: And he was listening to the words behind their words. And then he would share a very simple story.

[00:52:59] But it wasn't [00:53:00] like, you know, like, I don't know if you've guys have been in like a yoga class where you could tell the teacher cares more about you seeing them as a really fancy, enlightened teacher than actually running, running a good yoga class. Like, like I, I describe in ceremony, you can tell the difference between someone who is singing because they want you to see them sing beautifully, and someone who's singing to lift the room, you know, you can really feel the difference, right?

[00:53:25] Someone who's still in their ego, like they might be a beautiful singer, but like, it's definitely about them. And it, and it takes you out of your process because you're focusing on them versus someone who's. Song is meant to dedicate itself to the more all of us are moving towards like a, like a, i I think about like being under the ocean and like seeing the light guide you to the, you know, to the surface.

[00:53:47] And Jerry was the latter. You know, his, when he, and God bless when this man sang talk, he was big. I, I describe it as like, imagine you're sitting next to like Aretha Franklin on the bus and you had no idea, you know, just [00:54:00] someone in plain clothes. And then all of a sudden Aretha starts to sing and you're like, Hmm, my god, you know, like this man.

[00:54:08] And I wound up actually sitting in, in, in ceremony with him. And when he mo you know, good morning relatives all night, he's, he just moves. He starts to move the rattle. And I had never heard the rattle articulate in the way that he moved it. And he started to sing. And it was like, it was like he had a key directly to my heart and he just went, boop.

[00:54:38] And he unlocked it. And I have a feeling that that was the case for everyone because. In the sweat, he would share a story and it was a story that everyone could be warmed by. It wasn't a prescription, it wasn't a, for 39 99, I will tell you the 10 keys, you know, it was [00:55:00] a story that everyone could warm themselves by.

[00:55:04] So he was listening at such a depth that he would offer something that every person could be served by, but it wasn't because he needed to be seen. It was because he was truly in dedication to the more that wanted to live the song that wanted to live in the space between us. And to me, in addition to humor, that's what I look for.

[00:55:27] How is someone listening and from a place of listening, how are they evoking the song for others such that it is a beautiful offering to the more, you know? 'cause I think that's the piece. You know Stephen Pressfield, I know you, you're friendly with him. Elizabeth Gilbert wrote Big Magic, Stephen Pressfield, war of Art, right?

[00:55:52] Like that idea of the muse, right? That divine vessel that we all can be, [00:56:00] but we also often all have resistance to, to me, the real ones are the ones that help us become vessels for the muse or what I call in the book, the more right that I, that, that, that. Exponential potentiality that is always present.

[00:56:16] And we sometimes feel like we feel when we're in a really good song. We feel like that, that gentleman, when he had the music on the distended, the man who had, who lost himself, he like, he, he all of a sudden got tapped back into the more through the music. Right. And we all, we've touched those places in whatever it is that brings us to life.

[00:56:34] To me, the real ones are the ones that, from a place of listening, help evoke us back into that place of life that, that more

[00:56:43] Luke Storey: beautiful. Uh, I remember some years ago your dad passed.

[00:56:49] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[00:56:50] Luke Storey: Right. And I remember when that happened and you, you were real tight with him, right? Very, yeah. Yeah. I remember when that happened and just going like, oh man, I can't imagine.

[00:56:58] And then, you know, [00:57:00] as life does, it ended up happening for me last year, um, in a, in a very different way because, you know, your, your dad had a decline over a period of time. Right. So you, you kind of saw the writing on the wall in a way. And mine was just totally healthy, chilling, just boom, gone, you know, like that.

[00:57:17] Um. But one thing I've noticed in, in relation to, you know, our overarching topic of loneliness, separation, connection, all those things, is when he died and we were really close, you know, we went through a lot of shit when I was a kid, when he was, um, much less conscious, but he had a lot of work on himself and, and so did I.

[00:57:38] So we were able to kind of, um, build a new relationship, um, as an, when I was an adult, but after he died, it's like the world was a different place.

[00:57:50] Michael Trainer: Yes.

[00:57:50] Luke Storey: It's, and it is a different place. Right. It's, it's something that I never would've, you explained it to me a thousand ways and there's no way I [00:58:00] would've understood it because it's just, it's a, it's a subtle thing, but just, you know, looking out the window right now at those trees, it's like, that's my view of the world out there.

[00:58:09] It's just those are different trees.

[00:58:11] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[00:58:11] Luke Storey: You know, it's just, it's a, it's a different world and there's, um, yeah, there's like a, um, a, a very specific, uh, like texture to the lonely side of that. Mm-hmm. The loneliness that comes with that. Right. It's like, I have a lot of great friends. I have an amazing wife.

[00:58:34] My mom's still alive. I mean, you know, he was just one person among many, um, that I deeply love and love me back and is a right or die and would help me move a body, uh, you know, if need be. Not that it ever would be, but it's been my first loss of someone that I've been really close to. And, um, yeah, the world's just a different place and there's just, there's a [00:59:00] huge, uh, vacancy.

[00:59:06] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[00:59:10] Luke Storey: So I was hoping to get through that without breaking down too much,

[00:59:15] Michael Trainer: because no man, be with it. I'm, I'm here with you.

[00:59:16] Luke Storey: No. 'cause I, I mean, I don't, I cry on the show all the time. If I felt, feel a bit sometimes, like we got stuff to do.

[00:59:23] Michael Trainer: Nothing in, in my opinion, nothing more important than feeling that man in my opinion.

[00:59:28] First of all, just thank you for sharing and deep empathy, and I'm actually really glad that you said it the way that you did because I,

[00:59:44] you know, real talk, I'll be lucky if I experience a love that even comes close to the love I shared with my father in this lifetime. And[01:00:00]

[01:00:02] I think that's, that to me has been the closest. That in nature, the closest approximation of the more, you know, like that, that, that opposite of loneliness. You know, I, I'll share a story because I think it's so fucking powerful, but the reason, part of the reason I love my dad to the, the way that I, that I do, and I can kind of share it in a way that is approachable for other people, is my dad in his entire life never heard, I love you from his own father.

[01:00:36] Luke Storey: Whoa.

[01:00:37] Michael Trainer: Never in his entire life. I write about it. And my dad was one of the first men to go through, uh, what at the time was called the New Warrior Training. Now it's called the Mankind Project back in the eighties, the sort of mytho poetic beginning of the men's movement. And, uh, my, my grandfather was six four, you know, rode [01:01:00] at Yale, was a captain in the Air Force, very stoic, always had a suit on, drank his gin martinis.

[01:01:07] And uh, my dad went through some crazy pain in his life, was burned, third degree burns down to the bone, left, literally left in a hot tub by the people that were supposed to care for him, talking about loneliness like six months in bandages in a hospital bed alone when he was 15, 16, then went to boarding school, was teased mercilessly.

[01:01:26] And so he had all kinds of reasons to be like resentful of the world, you know. And yet he was the embodiment of love. You know, cookie walked by, she would be, she would jump up on him. You know, like dogs children lit up, you know. And my dad, when he went through this men men's training, which he then took me through, which was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life.

[01:01:54] He was the only father there in a group of 150 men that showed up to staff my weekend. And [01:02:00] it was like, I was in a really tough way at that time, and it was a ritual rebirth. And my dad took his dad out for lunch at a diner, and he had the courage as we talk, he had the courage to tell his father how much he loved him, how much he meant to him, you know, in like one of those rare, rare moments of, of, of real talk.

[01:02:26] And even then, in that moment, my grandfather didn't have it in him to say, I love you. But the only way that my dad knew that it meant something to him was he took a napkin from the diner and he folded it and he put it in his lapel pocket.

[01:02:50] And so years and years later, you know, when my dad was on his, he was in his sort of hospice bed, I went down to his desk and I found these [01:03:00] napkins. I didn't know if it was the napkin from, from his dad, but I, I share that story because my dad didn't let his love die on a napkin. Like he showed the fuck up man.

[01:03:13] You know, he was, he oriented his life so that I knew I was loved, you know, and I think part of the challenge of the world we live in today is it's, it's hard to find the people that truly have our backs, you know? And, and that, and that show the fuck up, you know? And you know, my dad, if it was like, if I was like, Hey dad, Luke's coming to the air.

[01:03:41] If he even didn't know who you were, Luke, my buddy Luke's coming to the airport, two in the morning, he'd be there dermis in hand. He wouldn't even ask who you were, you know, he just showed up, you know, and to me that was a, such a testament and such a,

[01:03:57] such a guidepost. [01:04:00] And, and to bring it full circle, it just, I just want to honor and acknowledge what you shared. The, you know, the world isn't the same. It ain't the same. You know, I see 'em in the little things like you talk about the breeze and, and I have moments of, uh, deep appreciation. But man, it's, uh, to lose, to lose that and, and know that it, that's part of the cycle of life.

[01:04:24] But to lose it, there's no, uh. There's nothing more real. So first of all, thank you for sharing and thanking. Thank you for letting me have a space to share because it's an honor to share a bit about him. Uh, but I feel for you, man, it's fucking hard.

[01:04:52] Luke Storey: Let's call it a wrap. No, I'm just kidding. Um, an interesting, it's [01:05:00] funny. Tell me the quote again about the horse is

[01:05:03] Michael Trainer: pain is the horse that beauty rods.

[01:05:05] Luke Storey: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:06] Michael Trainer: Pain is the horse

[01:05:06] Luke Storey: that, that I wish I would've thought of that. It would've been a,

[01:05:10] Michael Trainer: would've

[01:05:10] Luke Storey: been a great, would've

[01:05:11] Michael Trainer: been a great,

[01:05:11] Luke Storey: great thing to put in the book.

[01:05:12] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[01:05:13] Luke Storey: Um, but at a similar, I never remember exactly how it goes, but I, you know, as I was starting to work with the grief around the loss of my dad, and I mean, I've experienced a lot of grief, like all of us have in life, right? I mean, there's suffering involved in this experience, but I've never experienced the grief of, uh, of a loss like that.

[01:05:33] Right. And so I've just had to learn how to do it in, in real time. And, um, I came up with a, a metaphor one day. It just kind of hit me. I don't remember exactly how it went, but something to the effect of, you know, grief is like, it's like a dance partner.

[01:05:52] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[01:05:53] Luke Storey: Right. And. It decides when it wants to dance.

[01:05:57] Michael Trainer: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:57] Luke Storey: And it's up to me whether or not [01:06:00] I want to take its hand and get on the floor kind of thing, you know? And so it's been, even just in the moment when I brought up my dad, I mean, I wasn't feeling emotional about it or connected to that loss or anything, but it's like, seems like when grief is given the space and allowed to express it really is on its own schedule.

[01:06:22] You know? It happens at the most random times when I'm not expecting it at all. It happened the other morning, you know, I mean, I think there's, you know, there's the waves right, of after a loss like that. I mean, I had to show up to the hospital and there was like logistical shit that, you know, I mean, had to show up and be an adult and kind of handle some things, right?

[01:06:44] And through that there were waves of grief. And then of course, you know, in the, in the days immediately after that. But then it's, it's a funny thing because you feel like, okay, I had a few good cries, right? And you feel like, all right, I, I think I'm on the other side of this. And then life starts to kind of normalize.

[01:06:59] There's still the [01:07:00] world's different, you know, as I was describing earlier. I mean, it's different, but you know, you, you kind of pull yourself up and, and you get on with life and do what you're meant to do. It's so funny to me that, you know, that particular color, texture of feeling. I think there's just an endless reservoir of it back there somewhere.

[01:07:25] Michael Trainer: Oh yeah.

[01:07:26] Luke Storey: Right.

[01:07:27] Michael Trainer: There is, there is.

[01:07:28] Luke Storey: I'm just like, in 20 years, am I gonna be sitting and talk to someone like you and get hit like that? Yes. Again,

[01:07:34] Michael Trainer: God willing.

[01:07:35] Luke Storey: Yes. You know, it's, it's so interesting. So I've, I've been learning a lot about grief just from that. And I think the thing I've learned is it's on its own schedule.

[01:07:46] You know what I mean? Even in the beginning, I kind of did some exposure therapy. I mean, I watched like a two hour interview. I interviewed him on video, amazing. Years ago. Thank God I ended up putting it out as a podcast. 'cause every year I'd meant to, I meant to go record a real [01:08:00] podcast with him, you know?

[01:08:01] And I just, you know, I don't wanna bring my camera this time, for whatever reason, it just didn't work out. I was like, oh, I do have that one video. It wasn't really like an interview, but he just told me his life story basically. And I sat and watched that and just bawled, you know? And I would look at photos and I would just force myself to face it, thinking that if I just face this head on, I'll get through and I'll get to the bottom of the stack of grief.

[01:08:26] Right?

[01:08:26] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[01:08:27] Luke Storey: No, because now I find myself, I think, yeah, I still have, it's been over a year now. I pinned a couple, you know, dedication posts to my top of my Instagram feed. And I notice myself when I, which I rarely look at my Instagram 'cause someone else. Does it for me, thank God. Um, but I'll see those and I kind of skip past it.

[01:08:48] If I'm looking, you know, I'll look like, oh, what podcast came out today? Oh, cool. And then I see those photos of my dad. I'm just like, eh, not right now. You know? So even knowing that walking through something and just braving [01:09:00] whatever feelings might come up is the way through it. I also know that, um, based on my experience so far, that it wouldn't matter how many times I look at his photos or watch videos of him and think I've cried it all out in five years, I'll just be walking through the kitchen and boom, griefs like, Hey, wanna dance?

[01:09:18] Michael Trainer: Yep.

[01:09:18] Luke Storey: You know, and it's like, am I willing to continue to dance with it even though I don't know when the song is gonna end and feel pretty certain that the song probably never will end. It's kind of just playing in the background, waiting for me to engage with it, you know?

[01:09:34] Michael Trainer: Beautifully said. And I think it's the thing that's probably talked about the least that has one of the most exponential impacts on all of our lives, and is the antidote to loneliness, ironically, right?

[01:09:48] Is how do we actually honor grief, and how do we, how, how do we stay present to it? I totally relate to what you're saying in [01:10:00] terms of like, oh, okay, this popped up. I have the same pinned at the very top of my. Feed is a picture of me and my dad. Like this moment when he was diagnosed, he had been battling cancer when I was, um, hosting the Global Citizen Festival.

[01:10:16] And then when he got diagnosed with dementia, somehow the, the dementia felt even more like it was uncurable. And so I was like, you know what, let me, let me take him on a trip. And that's actually one of the things I write about in the book is this notion of a relational bucket list. And I think to me, the wealth in life is what are the quality experiences you share with the people you love?

[01:10:42] You know, that is wealth. Right. And to me, the best thing I've ever done in my life was taking my dad on that trip, you know, for 10 days. You know, we, I drove him from the You took a road trip? Indian Ocean trip. Yeah, I took him to South Africa. I surprised him. Wow. Yeah. I mean, he wouldn't, he was [01:11:00] so humble. I said, dad, anywhere in the world you wanna go, I'm gonna take you.

[01:11:02] You know, and he was so, he was so humble. He would never be like, take me for an ice cream. And I, he would've been totally happy if I took him for an ice cream down the street like that. He, he didn't have, you know, he had no expectations. So I, I knew he loved history and I knew he loved nature. And a friend of mine at the time was actually the head of, uh, of, of wine, the wine industry for South Africa and the us.

[01:11:22] And so she, she had seen what, what was happening in terms of what I was doing with my dad. And she was like. Because I put up literally on social media, I was like, if you could go anywhere in the world where and, and take someone you love, where would you go and why? And got some incredible, uh, recommendations.

[01:11:39] But she, I, it was a woman I'd literally gone on one date with six months ago. Beautiful. But like nothing happened. 'cause she was leaving the country and we got together for lunch and she was like, what do you think about South Africa? And I was like, I love South Africa. I was there for the World Cup. She was like, well, you know what, um, there's some people I know there that, that owe me some favors and I see what you're doing with your dad.

[01:11:58] I'd love to, uh, love to [01:12:00] reach out on your behalf if, if you're okay with that. And I was like, yeah, I mean, that sounds great. And Luke, when I say like, and I think that's the thing, right? When we talk about like the universe kind of rising up, especially in moments where it's like it's your true authentic note.

[01:12:16] Like this could not have been truer for me in terms of the purity of my song. And the world greeted us in the most beautiful way. I mean, I took him. We went, we did Raj in the mountains under, you know, in, in, in Fran Hook and Stellenbosch. And we, we went to a, a a I flew to Tsri, which was this, this, this game reserve where there was a brother and sister.

[01:12:40] Each had their own. The brother was very into like the modern chic, you know, like resort. The sister had like 10 units with like private chef. And, you know, my dad was not a luxury man. It was, this was a very like, but like I, you know, we had our own cabin and private safari driver, and they had rescued, they fund, uh, rehabilitating el [01:13:00] elephants from Zimbabwe.

[01:13:01] We literally rode elephants at night in the, in the bush, in the safari. And literally the mother's calling for her baby that's running free in the, in the, in, in, in the, in the, in the, you know, in the wilds. And like, I'm

[01:13:13] Luke Storey: lowkey jealous, dude, I wish I would've taken that

[01:13:15] Michael Trainer: dude, dude. It was,

[01:13:16] Luke Storey: I'm like, my dad would've loved that trip.

[01:13:18] Michael Trainer: Oh man, dude, for those listening, lemme just tell you. Take, take someone you love on a trip. That was honestly the best thing I've ever done. And I got a little bit away from, from what you were sharing though. 'cause the one thing I will say about, about grief, which I think was so beautifully expressed. You know, I think both societally and individually, we, we are the microcosm of the macrocosm, right?

[01:13:40] Jewel net of Indra Hawaiian Buddhist scripture talks about how we're all basically diamond nodes in this vast web. And, and that's the thing, right? The notion of loneliness and individuality is a total fallacy. We are a hundred percent interdependent and interconnected as a web in nature, right? But we've lost sight of that.

[01:13:57] Yeah,

[01:13:57] Luke Storey: totally.

[01:13:57] Michael Trainer: And I think both from a [01:14:00] societal point, like I think about talking about South Africa, the, the other thing is we haven't really mourned some of the horrors of the things that we've gone through collectively. You know, um, what I loved about South Africa, I'm not saying this is perfect, but after, you know, the scourge of apartheid, they actually had something called the truth and reconciliation movement.

[01:14:20] You know, where people who say, say a soldier had killed a woman's son, they literally would face each other and tell the truth. And like there was an incredible moment of reckoning where the perpetrator had to confront the vulnerability and the loss faced by the mother. And in, in certain instances, the mother would forgive him, like in public, right?

[01:14:43] Like, so there's, when we talk about healing work, and we talk about some of our social ills and the societal things that perpetuate itself just like generational trauma, I think actually looking and contending with grief and doing so publicly is one of the most powerful [01:15:00] medicines that we can have. And I think specifically speaking as men, I think one of the great scours for I, I, I don't like the word toxic.

[01:15:13] I think it's, I think it's problematic in a variety of ways. I don't think there toxic masculinity exists. I think there's deeply flawed and deeply wounded and, and actually like, you know, deeply hurtful, you know, actions that are perpetrated by both men and women or masculine and feminine. But I think what, what we have is we have individuated and un individuated men, you know, since time immemorial boys would be brought into the wilderness and indoctrinated into symbolic manhood and held to an account of what that standard meant by the elders in their community.

[01:15:55] And that is generational training that has been passed [01:16:00] down across cultures for thousands of years. And we have totally lost sight of that, right? So there is, we don't have any longer, even though our biology is wired towards that, we don't have those models and those communities, those cultures, family units, tribal units that hold us to account and.

[01:16:22] Bring us through the challenging moments in a good and beautiful way, you know? And so we see that manifest unfortunately, in some very bad behavior. And I'm not making excuse for that at all. Uh, but what I will say is, I think grief and attending to grief, the, the antithesis of that is a lot of the trauma that we're seeing and the perpetuation of trauma in our culture.

[01:16:43] Because when men don't actually grieve and deal with grief, they numb and they do, and they act out in ways that is not commensurate with an individuated man. And part, I think of the individuation process is a deep relationship with grief and [01:17:00] a willingness to look in the hard places.

[01:17:02] Luke Storey: Yeah. Beautifully said.

[01:17:05] Yeah. I think all humans that suppress things that need to be expressed are going to have distortions.

[01:17:16] Michael Trainer: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:16] Luke Storey: You know, it's gonna come out one way or another. Right. So if, if I wasn't willing to sit here and have a cry with you about the grief around my dad, it would come out in some other neurotic way.

[01:17:26] And if I was less con, and I'm sure it does, and if I was much less conscious, um, than I am today, how that would be expressed would probably hurt other people as well. Yeah, right. Cause them some kind of suffering or grief on the other side of that, you know, the, speaking to the generational nature of trauma one way, um, I, I hate to keep referring to my book and talking about your book, but they're so closely related, you know, although very different.

[01:17:54] Um, but it's like, uh, [01:18:00] suppressing that grief. The generational grief keeps the contagion of it

[01:18:06] Michael Trainer: mm-hmm.

[01:18:07] Luke Storey: Alive, right? Yes. It's like grief is like contagious. Um, trauma is contagious. You know, these feelings that we're unwilling to face because it's uncomfortable. And as men, um, we've been, many of us, um, in this culture at least have been taught that to express your emotions is weak.

[01:18:28] Right. When it's, the funny thing is it's, it's the most brave thing you can possibly do. Totally. Especially doing it in the face of all that conditioning, you know, generation, generations of conditioning, which I was conditioned with as a kid by my dad before he was, you know, did healing on himself. I mean, he would berate me and call me names and all kinds of things.

[01:18:49] Um, when I would cry, you know, I was a super sensitive kid, you know, took me decades of my work and decades of his work before I realized he was probably more [01:19:00] sensitive than I was. You know, his just. The coping strategies that he used were, um, through anger and violence and things like that. But underneath that, I came to know a deeply sensitive soul who just didn't have a proper outlet for that.

[01:19:15] Right? Yeah. And so he was destructive toward other people. And I turned mine mostly inward through addiction and just destroyed myself. Um, but regardless, those. Emotions and the experiences that we go through, if they're not faced and held and dealt with, they're gonna cause problems. You know,

[01:19:35] Michael Trainer: 100%. And that, and that's, you know, that, that's why shame is often the things that we, we won't look at or talk about publicly.

[01:19:42] Right. And you talked earlier about sobriety and, and you know, part of the re what reasons, I, I've never personally been in a 12 step program, for example, but I, I've been in men's work and deep men's work and done integration groups and spent years every week meeting with men, going through the darkest shit you can imagine.

[01:19:59] And [01:20:00] part of that is just bearing witness to another human. And the full expression of all that that entails. I mean, from what I've seen from the 12 step programs, a lot of it is bearing witness and people actually expressing

[01:20:14] Luke Storey: totally

[01:20:14] Michael Trainer: the shit. You know

[01:20:15] Luke Storey: what's funny, earlier when you were talking about, um, the Sri Lankan traditions that you were, uh, around and how, you know, bringing, bringing that person who's kind of lost touch with themselves and, and lost touch with the, with the song, right.

[01:20:29] With the music, bringing them back into tune. Uh, something that came to mind I mentioned, meant to mention earlier is that's the exact phenomena that takes place in 12 step groups.

[01:20:40] Michael Trainer: Yeah. Which

[01:20:40] Luke Storey: is just, it happened to me. So I kind of, I don't know that I'd never took it for granted, but I didn't see how miraculous that is.

[01:20:50] Until many years, um, many years in, in various programs myself. But you see someone who's, you know, a, a deficit to [01:21:00] society, harming themselves, harming other people in and outta jail, mental institutions living on the streets and so on. One thing changes. They walk into a dingy ass church basement, and they hang around there for a few nights and a few nights more, and they come back there every day for the free donuts and maybe the shitty coffee at first, right?

[01:21:20] Michael Trainer: Sure.

[01:21:21] Luke Storey: And then next thing you know, fast forward six months later, they have a job. They got, they're reconciled, you know, with their family. They're a productive member of society. They're completely transformed. What, what did that, you know, and it's that it's the collective power of unconditional love. You know, when, when unity, I mean, you can have unity around a lot of things that aren't necessarily positive, but unity with unconditional love.

[01:21:48] It's a, it performs miracles. It's like not an exaggeration to say it's a miracle. And you know, obviously this didn't originate in the 12 steps, but in our culture, I think that's one of [01:22:00] the last refuge, you know, for that. Right. Unless you're fortunate as we are, and you, you stumbled into some different, you know, indigenous, um, cultures and ceremonial work and things like that where those traditions have been kept alive, rights of passage and being seen and witnessed in your truth and people truly holding unconditionally loving space for you.

[01:22:22] But I think because I am so used to it now, whether it was through 12 step groups or other work that I've done, I just think, well, yeah, everyone can do this if they want to. And it's like, oh no, this was probably like less than 1% of the population, at least in this country, has access to that kind of love and support.

[01:22:41] Right.

[01:22:42] Michael Trainer: And it's a revolutionary act for many because so much of what the majority of people are exposed to and have access to, or at least that is vying for their attention is antithetical to what we're talking about. Right? Right. Like when you think about like YouTube, [01:23:00] you know, man, man influencers and uh, you know, the, the people who are who, who have the L largest megaphones.

[01:23:08] And have an agenda that is often self-serving and, and, and are celebrated by an algorithm that is all about polarity and polarization. And, you know, the more out there you are, the more outrageous, right? So that's, that's now training our nervous systems, right, in all kinds of ways, right? Like in terms of preferences, behaviors, right?

[01:23:30] All of that is being trained in, in this radical experimentation that we're engaging in in 21st century living in terms of, you know, you know, we've never, our nervous systems as tribal cultures, you know, we've never been presented with all of the trials and tribulations of all the humans on the planet every day.

[01:23:53] If you choose to tap in, right? Like I used to read the Wall Street Journal every morning and I was like, and I like to be informed and I, you know, I like, I [01:24:00] consider myself a global citizen. But I was like, wow, okay. It's not that I'm gonna bury my head in the sand, but I'm gonna focus on areas where I actually exert influence and not just get, have, have my nervous system blown open by every single thing and problem that's happening around the world that I have no agency over or very little, um, and.

[01:24:22] And you add that to boot with the, you know, the, the demands of modern day living and the everything vying for our attention and, you know, you're a single mom or you're a single dad and you know, it, it's, it gets complicated. So it isn't to say that it's all of a sudden like an easy solution. But I think to your point, there is a way that is available to all of us when we do take responsibility for our lives to find mechanisms to support that journey that are often free or very low cost and accessible.

[01:24:57] The price of entry is the courage to [01:25:00] confront your shit.

[01:25:01] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[01:25:01] Michael Trainer: You know? Exactly. And that, and that, and that is a high price of entry.

[01:25:04] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[01:25:05] Michael Trainer: But the gift on the other side is profound. Right. And, and I think unfortunately, you know, for example, you know, mankind project, you know, incredibly accessible and now it's global.

[01:25:18] I went through that training, it was profound. Right. Vipasana training, you know, Goenka, his gift to the world. 10 days donation only. Right. Like start a, start a start a get four or five guys together and start a men's group, you know, and, and read some, read some 12

[01:25:33] Luke Storey: steps too.

[01:25:34] Michael Trainer: 12 steps. Exactly. So there, there,

[01:25:36] Luke Storey: there are, there are no dues or fees.

[01:25:38] Michael Trainer: Exactly.

[01:25:38] Luke Storey: Crazy. It's

[01:25:39] Michael Trainer: crazy. Which is, which is incredible. So I feel like there are, there are so many tools out there, you know, um. It's wild that we have, you know, while there's dangers to it, we also have, you know, I grew up gonna, the library, I still remember the Dewey Decimal system. Like, you know, back in the day, you know, we have more [01:26:00] information than presidents had 20 years ago with the poll in the palm of our hands.

[01:26:02] So I think that there are opportunities, but the, you know, it's, it is incumbent upon us both culturally and individually. I think one of the best things that we can do is have peers that we're committed to, like you said, even if that's two or three people, right? That you're like, these are my true people and I'm deeply invested in their success.

[01:26:28] And for me, I've been thinking about that a lot. I'm like, okay. 'cause I was, I was thinking, I was thinking about, you know, my next birthday, I was like, what do I want to do? How do I wanna sell it? I was like, you know what? Think I'm gonna reach out to like the two, three people I that mean the most to me.

[01:26:41] And I'm probably gonna go off and do, like, even though I thought I wanted to do like a big celebration, I was like, I might do like a, a something. That's just me, but I'm gonna ask for letters. And I thought it was very vulnerable. 'cause this would be something like, if I had a partner, ideally she would reach out to my friends for me.

[01:26:56] But I was like, you know what? If God forbid there was ever a fire, the first [01:27:00] thing I would take would be my handwritten letters, you know, and my journals. And just ask those two, three people to reflect on our friendship. And that to me would be the greatest gift, you know? And I feel like it's, one of the things I talk about in the book is, you know, I have a practice which I've actually gotten out of, I'm about to recommit to where I do, like, as part of my morning routine, I'll reach out to three people randomly and I'll just send an unsolicited voice notes, or, or I'll write 'em a, a letter in the mail.

[01:27:27] I go where like, there's, there's, it's not crowded. Like it's not an email, you know, it's, it's like I'm gonna send a voice note and I explicitly say, no need to respond. Like it's meant to just be, and it's not on their birthdays. It's like I just take 30 seconds to tell 'em something. It's like the art of acknowledgement to acknowledge them.

[01:27:45] You know, like, I'll give an example, Luke. I want to acknowledge you for the way that you show up, the way that you care deeply for other people, the way that you [01:28:00] are a, stand in your conviction for the wellbeing of others. And your courage in being willing to share your authentic viewpoint in a way that you believe will serve others to the highest degree.

[01:28:14] I also want to acknowledge you for. The deep work that you've done on yourself to transcend your own dark night of the soul and enter into a place where you can be not only of service to others, but have called in a beautiful, profound, loving partnership. Something I still look to do in this life and have created a life to be admired by others.

[01:28:43] I think that that is a lighthouse in a world that is often dark off the cuff. But to me, how can I authentically show someone that I see them in the way that I see them and share that with them, [01:29:00] even if it's short. And then in that co obviously this was face to face, but in the context I'll, I'll then say, Hey, no need to respond.

[01:29:07] Just wanted you to know I was thinking of you. And I leave that and I do that as like a morning practice. Just practice. Yeah, just a practice talk. Beautiful. It's a, yeah, it's a resonance practice. I, I just, I do it as like a, 'cause I, one of the core tenets of, of, of, and I have a sort of a seven. Stage principle, sort of methodology, but one is being an offering, right?

[01:29:27] So how instead of traditionally we've been taught to extract, right? Like, what, what's in it for me? Right? Like networking was like, okay, let me look at your name tag, see how you can help me, and like, let me look over your, let me look over your shoulder and see if there's someone more important, right?

[01:29:43] Like, it's so backwards, right? But, but I think resonance comes from how can we, how can I authentically see you be an offering to you and have no expectation of anything of [01:30:00] return. That doesn't mean, you know, in the course of a relationship, like you, you, you don't ever have like a, you know, in this context, we've been friends for almost a decade, right?

[01:30:08] I have a book coming out. You were gracious to have me on. It's not to say like, and I would happily have you on when you, you know, it's not to say you don't do things for each other, but you're not, it's not like, oh, I'm only gonna talk with this person because I think they're gonna, it's X, y, Z. Right? It's like

[01:30:22] Luke Storey: the transactional nature of the relationship is secondary to the authentic connection.

[01:30:28] Michael Trainer: That's that's exactly right. And also recognizing by the way that sometimes your offerings won't, like, how do I put this? Reciprocity may not come from that relationship, and that's okay. Right. Um, I talk, I talk about this notion of. Batteries and black holes. So, you know, traditionally we have this concepts of givers and takers, but I think it's a little bit backwards.

[01:30:55] It's helpful, but I think a giver can still be an [01:31:00] energetic black hole. So, for example, someone might be very generous, for example, like someone might be very financially generous, like they like to pick up the bill when you're at lunch, et cetera. But they're doing it because they want you to owe them and they want to, they want you to have, they wanna manipulate you, right?

[01:31:14] Mm-hmm. Like to me, that's an energetic black hole. Whereas you might have another friend, for example, who's broke, like can never, can never pick up a tab, but will be the first person to help you move, right? Sends you incredible voice notes, makes you laugh all the time. Like, would you be the first person to show up with a pizza if you were, God forbid something happened to you, right?

[01:31:33] That's a battery, right? So to me it's like, okay. Who are the batteries in my life like? And that's based on how you feel, like how, how do I feel when I'm around this person and how do I double down and invest in the batteries in life and manage and own boundaries around the black holes? And I think that that's another kind of core tenet that I talk about in the book is like how do you actually cultivate the [01:32:00] garden of your relationships from a place of being an offering and knowing that those seeds will flourish.

[01:32:07] But it may not be in the traditional context of transactional relationship. Yeah. It's more like your moving through the world as an offering. And from that place, the world will come up to greet you. The more is, is you are an instrument. And if you're playing in tune. You know, then the music will play beautifully.

[01:32:27] You don't know exactly where it's gonna land, but it's gonna land. And so get ready, because that's how you call forward your band, right? Like your band. And then from your band, I talk about the symphony, you know? And, and that's where your impact even moves out further into the spiral, right? So it's like, as you, as you move generously, as you share your gift, as you, as you take courage in your path, slowly, slowly you call forward the, the aligned voices, right?

[01:32:55] The Beatles. Like your Beatles. Yeah. Your John Paul Ringo, right? And [01:33:00] then that music touches in ways you'd never have been able to even think about and opens up profound doors of possibility.

[01:33:10] Luke Storey: We all need a rhythm section.

[01:33:12] Yes,

[01:33:13] Michael Trainer: definitely.

[01:33:13] Luke Storey: That's your bare minimum.

[01:33:15] Michael Trainer: That's a hundred percent true.

[01:33:16] Luke Storey: A hundred percent.

[01:33:17] You got your rhythm section, the, yeah. Throw some horns over there in the periphery, you know, to add to the, the soundscape. But yeah, I, I really, um, I love, I love the way you frame all these ideas. It's, it's funny because this is the stuff I've been just buried in, you know, immersed in maybe is a better word for the past couple years myself.

[01:33:36] And it's funny 'cause I think, oh man, that's really cool. I never thought about it that way. Just when I think I've thought about this particular human issue, you know, from every angle. That's really beautiful. Um, one thing that, that we, we do share is. Noticing how you feel after you've been in someone's presence.

[01:33:56] Michael Trainer: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:56] Luke Storey: You know, I have a little bit in my book about, you know, [01:34:00] coherence and resonance and these things, and that was one of the things that I highlighted, uh, was just how do you feel? Totally. And going back to earlier in our conversation, as I think as we get, you know, as we work on healing ourselves and become more conscious and whole within ourselves, the road does get a bit narrower.

[01:34:19] Like in terms of who's gonna be in your band and who, who's the rhythm section.

[01:34:22] Yeah.

[01:34:24] Um, but not out of a place of exclusivity, just from a place of very simply, how do, how do I feel when I'm around someone and do I feel uplifted or drained after our interaction is complete?

[01:34:40] Michael Trainer: Totally.

[01:34:41] Luke Storey: You know, and, and you really only need a couple of few people that really light you up and leave you feeling inspired and empowered.

[01:34:49] And to me, I don't know, it's like, I think I just. G Getting older maybe is part of it, but I just value my [01:35:00] time so much more than I ever have. And I value myself and love myself more than I ever have, and there's a lot of work to do there still probably a, it's a, it's a

[01:35:09] Michael Trainer: lifetime,

[01:35:10] Luke Storey: maybe a never ending job, you know?

[01:35:11] Um, to me it seems like that's kind of the whole point of this game is learning how to love yourself ultimately. I think loving everyone else is much easier for me. Like, I can love the entire experience of reality pretty easy, but it's more difficult to include myself in that. But I noticed that the people that I feel energized by and I feel inspired by are people that see aspects of myself that I have a difficult time seeing.

[01:35:38] Michael Trainer: Yes.

[01:35:39] Luke Storey: They're, they're reminders. Like, Hey, like when you just did your beautiful little tribute to me, I was like, oh, man, that, that all rings true. Yeah. I was like, well, why don't I just feel that about myself all the time? Right. And that's, you know, that's the challenge. Like, I can, I can see you so easily.

[01:35:55] People that I care about, people that I enjoy, it's like they're fucking awesome. They're just [01:36:00] perfect exactly as they are. They're just absolutely perfect. To look in the mirror and have that experience is a, is a whole different thing.

[01:36:08] Michael Trainer: Totally. Yeah. It, it's, but that, and that's, that's the, that's the process, right?

[01:36:13] Because I think that's true for all of us. And, and that's why we gotta go back. I call it tuning your instrument. We gotta go back and perpetuate, tune the instrument, right? A, a violin could play beautifully, guitar can play beautifully, but you gotta keep tuning it, you know? It's, it's, it is not, it doesn't stay perpetually in this, you know?

[01:36:31] Oh, God would be amazing if it did. But like, uh, we, and, and, and knowing, I think one of the most critical things is knowing how to get back in tune. And that's, I think there's certain universal things. You talk about this all the time. I talk about this in my own ways, but, you know, for me, nature time with people I love, anytime I feel a little, like dissonance or outta tune if I go in water or if I do like the teka, like sweat, like those [01:37:00] are, to me, tuning practices.

[01:37:01] Like they bring me back to who I am. You know, I was floored in January. I literally could not think straight, and so I was attracting dissonance, right? When we're not in tune, we also attract that which is not in tune, right? Because that's, that's, that's the frequency we're putting out. Whereas when we, you know, and it's actually, this was a really beautiful 40 day stretch because I didn't chase the night at all.

[01:37:26] Like even seductive opportunities, you know, like. You know, beautiful people inviting me to this gathering. I was like, how does my, like if I'm my north, true north for this four days, knowing I'm about to step into this three month, you know, playoff season of, of talking about this book, which I've been in a cave for five years, so this is a new, I've gotta just treat this 40 days like nervous system.

[01:37:52] I am tuning you to be ready to be out in the world for three months. And so I think also [01:38:00] making your decisions on where you invest and who you invest your energy with, commensurate with that tuning is so valuable.

[01:38:07] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[01:38:07] Michael Trainer: Because, you know, you know, I, I love doing all the things. I love saying yes to all the things, but what I realized is like I can very quickly get outta tune because we do, you know, Lieberman wrote this book, social, I dunno if you've read it yet, but like, incredible neuroscientist outta UCLA, you know, he, we actually do literally regulate or disregulate each other's nervous systems, right?

[01:38:32] So it's like, okay, I've gotta really choose who I'm tuning with because that's either gonna amplify my frequency or it's gonna, I'm, it's gonna move me closer to dissonance. And right now I'm, I'm, I'm about to play, like, this is, I've been in rehearsal now I gotta go on. Yeah. Now I gotta go on stage. And I think you, you might know this one, um, there's a beautiful, some call it wc, some call it Miles Davis, but the quote.

[01:38:58] Which I have in the book that I love is [01:39:00] music is what lives in the space between the notes.

[01:39:04] Luke Storey: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:39:04] Michael Trainer: You know, and I love that. Anytime I start feeling like, oh, I've gotta gotta do all the things, you know, I've gotta, I'm like, hang on, hold up. You're trying to play all, you're trying to do the most, you know you're doing too much.

[01:39:17] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm.

[01:39:18] Michael Trainer: What is what, what is the, what is the, what's the pause? You know, like what's the elegant pause so that I know when I'm coming in if we're playing jazz, and also I can let you come in and like together, that's creating beautiful music. I think there are, unfortunately, our culture and a lot of influences are recommended recommending everyone go out there and solo all the time.

[01:39:40] But when, you know, when you got, you got 10 people trying to do a guitar solo at the same time doesn't sound very good. Right? So it's like, okay, how can we, how can we tune, how can we be in the listening? And then from that place, how do we make the right choices to know, okay, now, now I'm coming in and, [01:40:00] and I, and when I'm coming in, I'm coming in strong.

[01:40:02] Like I'm coming in with intention, you know, not, not half-assing it, you know, like, let's go.

[01:40:09] Luke Storey: What do you have to say about the, um, paradox of. The fact that we're more connected than we've ever been through technology, and at the same time also lonelier than ever.

[01:40:27] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[01:40:28] Luke Storey: What, what do, what do you or your book have to say about, um, social media finding significance in that that might be, um, less than sturdy ai?

[01:40:40] You know, I saw something recently about people falling in love with their AI chat bot. Oh. Like, oh my God. It,

[01:40:48] Michael Trainer: it, we are so, we are entering into a dystopian reality in many regards. I'm not anti technology. I think technology can, is, is a tool, [01:41:00] and it can be used like any tool for good, for harm. I have very, I'm a pragmatic idealist, so I do have some very, you know, um, large scale concerns because I don't think there's anyone minding the guardrails.

[01:41:14] Uh, I don't think, I don't think the incentives of our society are celebrating, uh, how do we bring this out slowly, ethically, and test it such that it is, um, so that it is a, an enhancement of our lives rather than a detriment to our lives. I think, um, I mean, I could go deep on this subject, but to keep it kind of top level, what I would say is the research shows that we are.

[01:41:46] Incredibly lonely and the consequences on our health and wellbeing are profound. Right. Cer, surgeon General basically came out and the, and the, the data shows that being lonely is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Right. [01:42:00] So, and if you look at the blue zones, if you look at, if you look at cultures where, you know, maybe even the, have some cheeky habits, you know, but they live longer because they're actually in, in integral environments.

[01:42:12] You know, you're out in Sardinia, you know, I don't currently drink, but, you know, if I were in Sardinia and like, you know, hanging out with all my homies on the, you know, and having a glass of wine after day's work on the field, you know, and, and we're 90 years old, well, that's a good life. You know, like, so I think, but the challenge is we've gotta be super, I think, hypervigilant in the awareness around how our tuning is being affected by those forces.

[01:42:41] And you know, for me, for example, social media in some ways has been profoundly, uh, life changing, right? Like. An example being that trip with my dad, you know, like that came out of someone seeing something I posted on social media. You know, I wound up riding horses with Gauchos in Chile and Patagonia because a [01:43:00] friend was like, oh, you're in Argentina.

[01:43:01] You should meet this person. And you know, so it's, it's it, in some ways it's been a blessing in my life and it has led to incredible connections that said, uh, do I doom scroll like other people do? I oftentimes look at other someone else's life and feel like my life is shittier, or I should be further along in my life than this person who seems to be married perfectly happy, living in a mansion and, uh, having no troubles that I can detect based on their Instagram profile.

[01:43:30] Yes, I get in that loophole, you know, I get, I get caught in that, in that, in that, uh, and then sometimes I, I just get sucked in right? Then I have the, luckily I, I come to my senses and I put it down and I recognize, okay, like what I wanna trade my life with them, do they probably have a lot of other things that aren't on their Instagram highlight reels that, that I wouldn't, you know, I'd be compassionate about, but I wouldn't necessarily, you know, y you, if you want, if you want every, some, every someone else's gold, you gotta be willing [01:44:00] to take all their shit too, you know, like, it, it doesn't, it's a package deal.

[01:44:02] So I think, I think part of where we're at is we are in uncharted territory. As the Chinese say, you know, the part beyond the maps where there be dragons. We are in the land of the dragons. There is no map. Uh, do I have existential concerns? Yes, I do. Do I think that the antidote is in part us finding our way home to each other?

[01:44:36] Yes, I do. And to me, this is one of the, you know, I called you a lighthouse earlier. I would say I look for the lighthouses in life. You know, my dad was a lighthouse. And my, my intention with the book is that it's a lighthouse in these times where, where we're entering into a dark night with murky waters.

[01:44:57] You know, I think it can be. And [01:45:00] I think I've seen, and we've seen societally, us navigate through some really challenging moments, sometimes just skimming by. And I, and I've seen for example, in some of the ceremonial work that I do believe that there is a greater consciousness, a great guy in consciousness that is seeking for us to wake up unto ourselves and to remember our music and to sing it beautifully.

[01:45:25] And so for me, the book is an offering to that song. Um. I think a lot of the dissonance that often keeps us from that song is based and rooted in technology or anything that takes us away from remembering who we are and who we are is intricately, intricately, and inextricably linked to each other. And you know, I'll give a great example, right?

[01:45:53] Anthony Bourdain got a man who was deeply flawed, but also fricking [01:46:00] amazing, you know? And for many of us, if we were just looking at his life, would've traded almost anything, at least for me, from what I want in life. Like, oh yeah, you get to travel around the world and like write your own television show, get carte blanche, you know, from your editors.

[01:46:16] Literally, he had creative control over everything he put out, and he got to spend, and he, by the way, he didn't hit Kitchen Confidential, didn't come out to his 44, so he also hit later in life. I love people like that. Stephen Pressfield, you know, people where it's like, okay, you know, they came into it later in the game, you know, to me, I'm like, all right, I

[01:46:34] Luke Storey: find that inspiring too.

[01:46:35] Michael Trainer: Oh yeah. I'm like, all right, second half is even better. You know, like, let's go. And yet, you know, man is, is living, you know, has a Peabody Award, has the societal, like, you know, I don't how many Emmys, right? Carte blanche is living the dream and yet took his own life, right? So we don't know. We see. The vision and, [01:47:00] and oftentimes I think, give away our power to think that someone else has, has it.

[01:47:06] And we don't. And as you know, I mean, it's cliche, but everyone's fighting a battle we know nothing about, you know? And so I think the, the main, the main thing is, is how do we come back to ourselves and know what is ours to give, like what, what brings us to life and our sharing such that it brings others to life?

[01:47:30] Because to me, I don't necessarily know. And, you know, having built global citizen, you know, with, with a small committed team, I know that we can create incredible things way beyond our imagination. You know, to go from an idea to nine months later, bringing 70,000 people together and raising $1.3 billion with my favorite rock, you know, Neil Young and Black Keys and Foo Fighter, like never, I, I've seen incidences of, I unbeknownst possibility coming together when you find your band and, and [01:48:00] together you can create something beyond your wildest imagination.

[01:48:03] It's my belief that if enough of us come into tune with each other, we can transcend any challenge. I, I don't believe nature provides a poison without also providing the antidote. So my belief is that there are legitimate poisons in our current cultural context, but there's also a commensurate antidote.

[01:48:24] And to me, that antidote is us coming alive and singing our song literally and metaphorically with the people with whom that song resonates.

[01:48:36] Luke Storey: Beautiful. Uh, one thing I noticed as I was exploring this topic of loneliness is that I don't recall a single time in the 29 years I've been meditating that I felt lonely in a meditation.

[01:48:56] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[01:48:57] Luke Storey: And I thought that's really interesting because [01:49:00] it's, it's maybe one of the most solitary things you can do. Right? You're totally, you know, you're probably in a quiet space and there aren't people around, and if they are, they're kind of leaving you alone. And it's a very interior kind of experience.

[01:49:15] And I thought, what is that? And I kind of chewed on it for a minute. Well, for more than a minute, for a few days. Like, what's up with that? Yeah. That's so weird. It's counterintuitive. And um, what I came to was that. And let's just set aside the different styles of meditation and also the subjective experience where you think, like, to me, I used to like label meditation.

[01:49:37] Oh, that was a really good one, because I was able to drop in and kind of, you know, get beneath the mind and all of that. Um, and then a teacher of mine that taught me Beic meditation, Jeff Cober, shout out to Jeff. I was like, uh, in our tradition, there's no good or bad meditation. It's just, you either did it or you didn't.

[01:49:55] Bad meditation is you didn't meditate. Exactly. Um, but [01:50:00] that said, you know, I think anyone that meditates would likely agree that it's a more pleasant experience and seems to be more rewarding, um, if you can kind of go deep, you know? Yeah. So when I was looking at that, I said, man, if meditation is a place, if, if you're lonely, that's when you should really be feeling it.

[01:50:19] Mm. Why is that not the case? At least not for me. And the realization that I came to was that, you know, in meditation, we're becoming less of ourselves and more of all that is, right? Mm-hmm. We're, we're merging with consciousness, which is the capital. Our reality, as you alluded to earlier, right? There's this field of consciousness of which we are just a single expression.

[01:50:44] And so in meditation, we're merging back with that field, you know? Yeah. We're, we're going home. Right. And like, why would you ever be alone there? There's no other to miss. Right,

[01:50:54] Michael Trainer: right. Exactly.

[01:50:54] Luke Storey: Kind of thing. Right. So going back to kind of how I was framing this earlier, you have [01:51:00] kind of your relational loneliness, and then you have the existential like, do I feel cut off from the universe or cut off from God?

[01:51:06] Um, what, what is your experience in your own practice, whether it's meditation or ways that you come into your unique song, resonances with yourself, um, how have you explored the, the, um, illusion of separation?

[01:51:27] Michael Trainer: Mm.

[01:51:27] Luke Storey: You know what I mean? And to me it's like a lot of the game has to do with having glimpses of the totality of all that is right, of, of consciousness as a whole, as oneness.

[01:51:39] It's like, yeah, okay. I've, I've had experiences of that where I know that that's true, but then the illusion of being in a body and dealing with the physical world and having an intellect and an ego and all of the things that reinforce the idea of separation, it's like how do you remind yourself that separation is not real [01:52:00] at a, at a base level, at a, at a quantum level?

[01:52:04] Michael Trainer: Well, one word I would put out, I mean, the beautiful question nature, nature would be my, like the nature is my church. So anytime, anytime I get into the monkey minds using the meditation analogy of, of. Dissonance, I step back into nature in whatever form that may be. So recently that was, okay, I'm going back down to where the ocean is warm and the, and and blue, and I can cut the cords that are energetically connecting me to things that don't no longer serve me.

[01:52:45] And then I'm gonna go into the te mecal and I'm gonna use the heat to, to pray and to transmute and I'm, and to be reborn. And so the culture, warm people, nature. You know, I [01:53:00] think one of the things that isn't talked about enough that when I really need a retune, like when I need like a, a, an existential upgrade, like a new operating system, an io, a new iOS for the, for the human psyche is I do vision fasts or I'll go on a, like, this was just a 40 day journey during, uh, t after my father passed in 2020, I did a 40 day trip through the American West.

[01:53:24] I had, I had a camper van, just kind of a, a weekend warrior. I remember that. And I, I, I thought actually I was just gonna go to Zion National Park. I just needed a little retune. And then there was this guy, Boyd Vardy, I dunno if you ever met. Yeah, yeah. Boyd Boy. Boyd.

[01:53:36] Luke Storey: He's been on the show.

[01:53:37] Michael Trainer: Yeah. He's a great guy.

[01:53:38] I, I had, he had a podcast at the time where he was in South Africa on his family's, uh, land and he was doing 40 days in a tree house. And I was, I happened to, I had just had him on the show and I was listening to his podcast and I, as I was driving through Zion and I was like, I don't have anywhere I need to be.

[01:53:55] Like, uh, you know, the world's basically quote unquote shut down. [01:54:00] So why don't I do my own 40 day journey? And I just, I went from Zion, I went through all five national parks in Utah, uh, man arches. Wow. Canyon land sat under the darkest night of the, you know, the dark sky where you can see, talk about perspective giver, you know, look at, look at, look at the, the pictures that are being projected back now of the great cosmological formations.

[01:54:26] You know, and think about like this, this incredible earthship that we're all riding in this vast sea of, of a multitude of un universes. There's a great mathematical cosmologist I love named Brian Swim. And he talks about the macrocosm and the microcosm. And when I get into a sort of dark night thinking, one of the things I love is he talks about how our.

[01:54:48] The planets in the solar system is an, an incredibly unique band of generation, like a gravitational pull. And that gravitational pull and, and, and where we are mathematically [01:55:00] has allowed for the unique flourishing of life as we know it on planet earth. And that's true not just of our solar system, but our solar system within the universe.

[01:55:07] Our universe within a multitude of universes. So it's like, just like you as a human being listening to this, are the sum of miraculous gestation, generation to generation, millions of spermatozoa fertilizing eggs that led to this unique song that is you embodied in this life. So is the earth, this unique manifestation spinning in this infinitesimal gravitational pull, the tension of which has allowed the flourishing that we know of, of life.

[01:55:37] And he talks about that on a microcosmic level of like, he uses like the analogy of of of like the squirrel and the hawk, right? Where you think it's existential, right? The squirrel oftentimes is devoured by the hawk, yet the squirrel has become the squirrel because of the hawk. The squirrels adeptness it's eyesight.

[01:55:57] Its sensitivity exists as it does because of the [01:56:00] predatory relationship it has with the hawk, the hawk's, dexterity, its ability to fly, its, its cunning has, has evolved because of its relationship. And that is part of the great balance, the great heartbeat of our collective song. And so when I lose sight of that balance or when I get out of tune, I go as fast as possible to a natural place.

[01:56:24] Like a deep nature. Like I'll go, used to be, I'd go to Yosemite, 'cause I live in Northern California and I'll sit and I'll sit for a long time. One of my best experiences, it was separate from this 40 day trip, but I, I went to the, a place called the Lost Coast. Uh, I haven't shared this, but the Lost Coast is the only part of the American coast.

[01:56:52] West coast that does not have the one highway. So it's the only still remaining rough, rugged, [01:57:00] wild as it was for 300, 400, 500 thousands of years. Part of the coast from ca, from Mexico, all the way to Canada. It was two rugged, so they had to build the one highway 40 miles in. So I drove in and you could only backpack, and I backpacked in to a berm of sand and I, and I set up a tent and I sat and I did a vision fast for a week listening to the rhythm of the waves from sunset to sunrise and, and time and again.

[01:57:29] And when I needed to bathe, I would go naked as a day I was born into the waterfall. There was no people like, no people. You had to back up to get in. Wow. Respect. And I sat and I listened to the waves and the degree to which, by the way, you get in tune, like the degree to which we're talking about earlier hearing, like, like the sensitivity of my hearing, the sensitivity of my smell, right?

[01:57:52] We know, we know the power of, for example, fasting, but to do that in nature. And then also what I find is the way that the, [01:58:00] like you were talking about meditation, the way that the, you become part of the ecosystem. You're not just like an invader or an intruder walking through. You become absorbed. So the, the birds start to sing differently and you start to notice that song, and then the web of that song starts to layer around you.

[01:58:25] A beautiful moment for me was those gauchos. When I rode, I rode, my dream was to ride 50 horses to pasture in Chile, Patagonia. And I talked to these gauchos. It's a beautiful talk about, this actually was a, I'll share this because it was amazing. So I, I did a, um, I did, oh, a workshop in New York City and it was a personal development workshop and you had to declare something that you had to get up on stage in front of, you know, hundreds of people and declare something that you're afraid of.

[01:58:57] And at that point, I lived in Sri Lanka country Civil before I'd done a [01:59:00] fair amount of things, but I was like, I have never in my life sang karaoke. 'cause when I was young, I got a message. Michael, you're great at many things, but singing Me too. I have one of them.

[01:59:10] Luke Storey: That's my, that's my number one fear is singing.

[01:59:13] Michael Trainer: Yep.

[01:59:14] Luke Storey: In front of people.

[01:59:15] Michael Trainer: You and I share this,

[01:59:16] Luke Storey: it's crazy. Like, I can play, you know, I play guitar, I play bass. I mean, I don't think I'm great at it, but it's, I, I don't find it terribly embarrassing. But if someone's like, Hey, why don't you sing something? It's like, quick side note, don't lose their train of thought.

[01:59:30] When I was talking about doing shit that's embarrassing. Earlier.

[01:59:33] Michael Trainer: Yes. Yep.

[01:59:33] Luke Storey: Just to fuck with myself. Um, when my dad died, I did a episode about him.

[01:59:39] Michael Trainer: Yep.

[01:59:39] Luke Storey: And, uh, I sat right in that chair and I played and sang a song and put it out on the podcast.

[01:59:43] Michael Trainer: Good for you man.

[01:59:44] Luke Storey: A beautiful Bob Dylan song. That's that.

[01:59:47] You'd have to be a real Dylan fanatic, even though, but it's called Death is Not the End Epic song. I actually first learned it from Nick Cave and didn't even know it was a Bob Dylan song. And when I went to learn how to play it, I was like, this is a Bob [02:00:00] Dylan song. Amazing. But that was one of those things I was like, oh God, this is mortified.

[02:00:04] You know? And I just did it anyway. And also, and keep the thought. Don't lose it. 'cause it's a great story. The thing about, we were talking about not taking yourself too seriously. Right. The thing I remind myself a lot in situations like that is, you're not that important. And I don't mean that in a, in a

[02:00:24] Michael Trainer: no,

[02:00:24] Luke Storey: a self-deprecating way.

[02:00:25] It's just like, dude, who cares what people think? Like you're not that important, even to other people. You know what I mean? It's just like, so you go sing karaoke and you suck at it. So you sit and sing a song for your dad, and maybe you're like a little outta tune here and there. You don't hit every note perfectly or whatever.

[02:00:44] It's like, dude. It's not that important. You're not that important. Everyone's living their own lives. In, in our, each of our own little worlds. We, we feel so important because we experience the world through subjectivity.

[02:00:58] Michael Trainer: Mm-hmm.

[02:00:59] Luke Storey: Right? So it's like [02:01:00] we're just living in this bubble that everything about us matters, especially what other people think.

[02:01:04] Mm-hmm. That's really fun just to forget about that. Try to remind myself that anytime I'm like, Ooh, what would they think? It's like, dude, you're, you're not that important.

[02:01:14] Michael Trainer: Definitely.

[02:01:15] Luke Storey: Yeah. So anyway.

[02:01:16] Michael Trainer: No, it is, and so you're, you're on it's astute point because it, it's the energy you bring to it, right? Like, just like how you go out in the world, right?

[02:01:24] You can be dressed the same way. You go to the karaoke, you sing a song, right? It's if I, am I bringing energy? It actually matters very little. Okay. Yes. If you're an amazing singer, it's a thing, but like, it's more what's the energy you bring to that song? And so for me, I declared, okay, I'm gonna sing. And I declared the song, total Eclipse of the Heart in the next month.

[02:01:42] Wow. I declared it on stage. Right. That's,

[02:01:45] Luke Storey: you picked a tough song

[02:01:46] Michael Trainer: too. I I, Hey, you know, I'm not one for doing things. Half Xed.

[02:01:48] Luke Storey: Melody has a lot of range there.

[02:01:50] Michael Trainer: Oh yeah. You had to come, you had to come with it. So

[02:01:52] Luke Storey: I picked a easy one. Yeah.

[02:01:54] Michael Trainer: Oh, I mean, Dylan, Dylan is

[02:01:55] Luke Storey: three, three chords. Pretty basic. Melody

[02:01:58] Michael Trainer: di Dylan is epic.[02:02:00]

[02:02:00] But I was like, you know what? I'm going total eclipse of the heart. And so I fly, okay. So I had booked a ticket, this was on, when Facebook was like a thing, there was a ticket for $350 round trip to New York, to Argentina. And I was like, this can't be real. That's like the price of tax. But I booked it and then I forgot about it 'cause it was for a very unique window.

[02:02:19] And it just so happened that calendar invite popped up and I was like, oh, I have a ticket if I want to go to Argentina. And so I was like, of course I'm gonna Argentina. I get on the plane. I had never, by the way, used Airbnb and I had no plans, like literally buckle your seatbelt. I had not one plan, so I was like, oh, I should at least have a place to land.

[02:02:39] So I, I signed up for Airbnb and there was, I just signed as they're saying, buckle your seatbelt. I just pressed whatever the first place had popped up. I just booked it. So I landed Palermo soho, which wound up being an incredible place in Buenos Aires. And I put on, uh, on my social media. What do you do in Argentina?

[02:02:56] I have no plans, like I'm open to anything. And on [02:03:00] my desktop was a picture just like what you showed me of your coming book cover, which I didn't tell you at the time, but of the Andes. And it was like this vision that I had been having, right? This woman puts on my social media wall, you should meet my friend.

[02:03:17] And it's the exact same picture of the Andes, but with horses, and I love horses. It was the equine therapy therapy that brought me back to sort of trusting and to love. And so I was like, that's a sign I'm going there. And I was just a part of the distinction in this, in this leadership thing is you're just, you are living in possibility, right?

[02:03:39] So she's like, you should call my friend. So I called her friend. I was like, um, my name's Michael. Your place is, it's a sign. It looks amazing. She's like, oh, thanks. You should come. We have a hotel. It's in, uh, in Chilan. Patagonia. Patagonia in Tortoise, still Piney. And I was like, okay, I hadn't planned on going to Chile, but I've got 10 days.

[02:03:59] That sounds amazing. [02:04:00] I was like, just outta curiosity, um, how much is your place? She's like, oh, it's all inclusive. It runs about a thousand to 2000 a night. And I was like, okay. Um, you know, I hadn't planned on Drop. I was running global ci we were building Global Citizen at the time was a nonprofit in New York City.

[02:04:15] So, uh, I didn't have 20 grand to, uh, to drop on a, on a week, but I was like, again, I didn't even see it as a limitation. I was like, look. Zero pressure. Um, I launched this festival called Global Citizen with some friends. Um, I'm also the creative director. I just did these, these films, if you happen to have vacancy, um, it's a nonprofit, so I don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not gonna drop, uh, 20 grand on, on a hotel, but if you happen to have vacancy, I'd love to make something for you.

[02:04:40] Zero pressure. She's like, send it to me. So I sent it to her. She calls me back in two minutes. She's like, this is destiny. Come stay as long as you want. Shoot at whatever you want. So I get, and I had no idea at the time, it's the second best hotel in all of Latin America. It's like an eco, [02:05:00] one of the o oldest eco lodges called, uh, um, what was the name of it?

[02:05:05] I wanna share the name. I'll think of it and you can link it in the show notes. It's in Torre Pine and it's insane, like unbelievably beautiful. So. Again, I'm living in possibility. I say, okay, yes, I'm coming. I go to wherever the airport is. The the, the plane has already left. I get the next flight out land.

[02:05:26] The bus is already left. So I, I'm like, all right, cool. I can just get in a taxi, take a four hour taxi to the, the border of Chile. And I had no idea. The Chile's and Argentinians don't get along. So it's an eight kilometer border. It's 4:00 PM fi, almost 5:00 PM at night, and I have a roller board, and there's no way I can walk across the, like an eight kilometer border in the middle of literally nowhere in, in Patagonia, but I'm living in possibility.

[02:05:49] So I talked to the border guards and they let me take the cab across the border to the edge, the ca taxi driver's, like I have never, ever in all my years of taxi drive ever seen that happen. And so I'm [02:06:00] like, all right, I'm, I'm living a possibility. Get to the, get to the border, get out of the taxi. There's a van there to pick me up.

[02:06:07] We drive in. The sun is setting and these mountains, and I dunno if you've ever seen these Waco's, these, like, they're kind of like, um, they're kind of like these, these gorgeous regal, you feel like you're in Lion King. These, like these regal South American, like alpaca, these won cos are just like starting to like perch up.

[02:06:27] You can tell there's like no threat. They're like perching up for these, like, almost looks like they're flexing like to in like the sun. And it's the most, beau, one of the most beautiful sites I've ever seen in my life. And I'm in pure, unadulterated, pristine nature. I'm driving in the middle of nowhere, Chilean, Argentina on the way to the hotel that my friend who was at my leadership training recommended.

[02:06:54] And all of a sudden the road is blocked. The alpaca are [02:07:00] crossing the road. And in that moment, I kid you not on the radio in the middle of Chilean, Patagonia comes total eclipse of the heart.

[02:07:14] Luke Storey: Of course,

[02:07:16] Michael Trainer: open the door, get out like a fucking rockstar, just belt out. Total eclipse of the heart to the alpaca, to the sunset over the Andy and Peaks, one of the most beautiful moments of my life.

[02:07:31] The alpaca gently like opened up. We drive to this Hotel Explorer Lodge. I just remembered the Explorer Lodge and I have one of outside of the South Africa trip, one of the most beautiful trips of my life, the culmination of which was riding with two gauchos to release 50 horses to pasture. They leave me alone and I slowly got down off the horse and as I sat there, the horses, which [02:08:00] initially were a little bit, you know, who is this guy?

[02:08:02] You know, I could see by the way, they're kind of like their, their shoulders are moving and they're, they're all kind of like. 30 feet away. I just got down low and I just was with the ground and I didn't move, made myself non-threatening. And slowly, after about an hour, the horses surround me and the sun sets 14,000 foot Andy and Peak, and there's not a person for miles.

[02:08:26] And I just started to cry, like just had like one of the most beautiful, pristine moment me 50 horses, totally alone in nature. And that is the moment of resonance. That was the moment that when I ever, I forget my song, I go back to that because that's that moment, maybe not that exact scene, but that moment I remembered it wasn't about being anything, doing anything, it [02:09:00] was a moment of listening.

[02:09:03] And from that place, the world moved differently. And

[02:09:13] though it was silent, it was one of the most beautiful songs I've ever sung. And it came first from me facing again, the fear. But then it came to me in this beautiful silence that in this deafening world where we're always besieged by external noise, I found signal. I found pure, pristine, clean, clear, unadulterated signal.

[02:09:42] Luke Storey: That's great.

[02:09:43] Michael Trainer: Yeah.

[02:09:44] Luke Storey: Yeah. What a great story.

[02:09:45] Michael Trainer: Yeah. So those moments are what I look for. So that's what I found on, in the Lost Coast. That's what I found on Argentina. That's what I found on the 40 day, uh, trip Glacier National Park all the way over. Went to Rainier, all the way down the Oregon coast, down [02:10:00] California, all by myself.

[02:10:01] 40 days solo. Deep nature. And also one other thing, if you get a chance, and I did this in Iceland and I've, I, I did this in Washington. If you go into a glacier stream, and I know you're appreciator of water,

[02:10:21] I went in Iceland and this man handed me a piece of water in this secret ice cave, which by the way, no, entheogens was one of the most powerful ceremonial experiences of my life to be in like the embodiment of the divine feminine water that had been not touched by any nefarious external industrial pollutant ever.

[02:10:38] Right? Like literally put this, uh, he handed me a piece of this. He said, this water is from snow that fell in Iceland over a thousand years ago. This ice, to to, to have that water touch my mouth and then to, to bathe in glacial water. And I know you 'cause I know you harvest spring. Well, I know you love this.

[02:10:59] I [02:11:00] was alive and got. Information, which I can't even describe information that cleansed me, like bad habits. I had like started at that point I was going through a lot of stress. I started like, started smoking, quit smoking. Like, it was like, I, I had just got like so clear and it just came from being in clear, pristine immersion in nature and in that case, in the, in divine, in water.

[02:11:28] Wow. In pure like water that had never been tainted by anything.

[02:11:34] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm.

[02:11:35] Michael Trainer: That to me is one of the mo that's like, that's like the, almost like the holy grail of, of, of clear, unadulterated signal.

[02:11:46] Luke Storey: Yeah. It, uh, sounds like the water was so highly ordered that it brought you into order.

[02:11:54] Michael Trainer: Yes.

[02:11:55] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[02:11:55] Restructured. You

[02:11:57] Michael Trainer: beautifully said. That's cool. The fern canyons in Washington, the [02:12:00] place where I merged myself, literally 30 million year old fern species and glacier water just through a river in a secret canyon, and just to lay in that water. 100% restructured.

[02:12:14] Luke Storey: All these, all these stories are big. I'm like, I gotta get the hell out of Texas.

[02:12:18] Probably

[02:12:18] Michael Trainer: got nature time, baby.

[02:12:19] Luke Storey: I need to travel for real. Um, I want to encourage everyone listening and watch me to, uh, to buy Michael's book. As I said, I only have the, you know, the, um, what do they call it? The galley copy? The

[02:12:32] Michael Trainer: galley,

[02:12:32] Luke Storey: yeah. Yeah. Where I have like excerpts of it in a PDF. Um, and I can already, I already knew 'cause I knew you, but I was like, oh damn, this is gonna be a good book.

[02:12:41] But even if it was a mediocre book, which it is not, uh, I know what goes into this as a labor of love. And so I really wanna highly encourage people listening to, um, to support. Authors and, uh, people like Michael doing this kind of work. So again, Luke story.com/trainer [02:13:00] three, uh, where you'll find links to his book, uh, which is called Resonance, the Art and Science of Human Connection, again, by Michael Trainer.

[02:13:09] And, uh, you can go get it on Amazon right now too, if you can. Uh, we will link to that. But I just, you know, I've had 600 people on the show over the past 10 years, or no more, six 60 or something like that. Um, many of whom have been authors and they bring their book and I try to read as many of their books as I can.

[02:13:27] It's like, oh, that's cool. They have a book. That's, that's nice. I mean, I literally did not know what is required, uh, in order to really write a book yourself and have it be something that's, you know, meaningful and well received. So congratulations on getting it done.

[02:13:42] Michael Trainer: Thank you,

[02:13:42] Luke Storey: brother. I didn't realize that you started your process around the same time.

[02:13:45] Oh yeah. I started, the initial idea was around yes. Six, seven years ago.

[02:13:49] Michael Trainer: Yep.

[02:13:49] Luke Storey: You know,

[02:13:50] Michael Trainer: it's been, as you said, it's a reckoning, you know,

[02:13:52] Luke Storey: you know, it's, it's funny too, 'cause had my dad not died, you know, mine would be coming out this month and yours, you [02:14:00] know, in a couple months, right? Yep. So it's funny in the way that works.

[02:14:03] Michael Trainer: No, mine was been initially supposed to come out this month, March 31st.

[02:14:06] Luke Storey: Oh, funny. It's totally, we would've been the same time. It would've been both. Okay.

[02:14:09] Yeah,

[02:14:10] yeah, yeah. Wow. That's funny. But yeah, seriously, guys like books are inexpensive and can really, you know. Make a meaningful impact on your life. So I wanna encourage everyone, please buy his book.

[02:14:20] It'll be worth it. I'll give you a refund if you don't like it. No, I won't.

[02:14:25] Michael Trainer: Well, I'll also say, um, first of all, just thank you, man. It's, uh, it's an honor to, I haven't gone in this depth with anyone. Like I said, I just came out of a 40 day, like very insular season, and I was like, um, I didn't tell you this, but like, literally didn't have my car.

[02:14:42] Like, I, I got my car Rekeyed this morning. I was like, I gotta make it to Luke because, um, yeah, I, I knew that. I just felt there's certain people, and this is what I encourage people to, to listen to. There's certain people where your way of being is just natural, right? Like, you [02:15:00] just, you just feel good in their presence, right?

[02:15:03] You're not forced. It's, it's, it's, um, and that's, and that's what you want to be listening for, right? The places and the people that bring you to life. And you're one of the people that brings me to life. So, thanks. I want to thank you, Luke. It's, uh, I appreciate it. Yeah. And I can't wait to read your book.

[02:15:21] And yeah, for those, what I also, what I also suggest, I haven't even told you this. If anyone is keen, and this will be obviously out for years, but I'm gonna also do, as you know, my background is doing large physical events. Um, so I'm gonna do a physical event, love to include you, incorporate you, uh, with your book and a digital event as well.

[02:15:41] So depending on when someone listens to this, they can just tap into resonance.biz. It'll be, all the info will be there.

[02:15:47] Luke Storey: Epic.

[02:15:48] Michael Trainer: Yeah, brother.

[02:15:48] Luke Storey: That's cool. What if, what if you and I become like the spokespeople for loneliness?

[02:15:55] Michael Trainer: It would be interesting,

[02:15:56] Luke Storey: you know, sometimes people write a book and that kind of becomes their thing, you know?

[02:15:59] [02:16:00] Um, which is just funny. Uh, if that happens to be the case. Yeah. And

[02:16:03] Michael Trainer: by the way, if that does, I think there need there, there needs to be so many more people talking about it. So I, it would be a blessing for a lot of people, right? Because I think anyone who speaks authentically about their own experience with loneliness and also provides, again, that lighthouse out and, and back to, 'cause I think what you, what you, what you shared is, is powerful, right?

[02:16:30] It's not just about being surrounded by people, right? We can find, we can dismiss loneliness within ourselves. Actually. Solitude is, can be a very not lonely experience. It can actually be an extraordinarily, yeah. In fact, my most connected moments have been at peace in solitude with myself.

[02:16:47] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[02:16:47] Michael Trainer: Uh, because we're, like you said, you quiet the noise and you're, you recognize your interdependence and interconnection with all things and.

[02:16:55] If we can provide a guidebook for people to connect more beautifully with [02:17:00] others, given that, in my experience, the best thing we can do in this life is have quality shared experiences with people we love, then all the better.

[02:17:07] Luke Storey: Epic. Um, I already asked you the question before, which I always end the show with so I don't need to ask you.

[02:17:17] We're we're done. I was like, oh, I gotta do the thing. I'm like, no, I'm not required to do it if someone's been on before. Uh, and by the way, we will link to your, uh, past two episodes. Well, one and a half, one of 'em was like a mashup episode, and those would be episodes, uh, two 15 and 2 25 respectively. So we'll link to those as well for people that wanna hear more from you.

[02:17:37] So thanks for making the time to roll through, man. I appreciate it.

[02:17:40] Michael Trainer: Thank you, brother. It's an honor to, uh, to be in your space. I'm really inspired by what you've created and continue to create, and I'm looking forward to reading your book and to listening to more of your song as it is expressed beautifully in the world.

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