442. Integration Is Not Optional: Future of Psychedelic Coaching & Humanity’s Healing w/ Tah + Kole

Tah and Kole

DISCLAIMER: This podcast is presented for educational and exploratory purposes only. Published content is not intended to be used for diagnosing or treating any illness. Those responsible for this show disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information presented by Luke or his guests. Please consult with your healthcare provider before using any products referenced. This podcast may contain paid endorsements for products or services.

Today’s episode features my epic friends Tah and Kole – and if you don't know their work yet, they host the Psychedelic Coach podcast and are co-creators of the Condor Approach, which is a psychedelic-informed certification for therapists, physicians, life coaches, and health experts.

Tah and Kole host The Psychedelic Coach Podcast and are co-creators of The Condor Approach, a psychedelic-informed certification for therapists, physicians, life coaches, and health experts. Practitioners flock to them after seeing the research, documentaries, and even the University of Texas’s new research division. The potential these master plants and fungi have for moving humanity forward in mental and physical wellbeing can not be ignored, and Tah and Kole are committed to building business structures that are contribution driven and are examples of reciprocity to indigenous communities.

DISCLAIMER: This podcast is presented for educational and exploratory purposes only. Published content is not intended to be used for diagnosing or treating any illness. Those responsible for this show disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information presented by Luke or his guests. Please consult with your healthcare provider before using any products referenced. This podcast may contain paid endorsements for products or services.

This is a special one, guys. It features my epic friends Tah and Kole. If you don't know their work yet, they host the Psychedelic Coach podcast and are co-creators of The Condor Approach, which is a psychedelic-informed certification for therapists, physicians, life coaches, and health experts. 

In addition to their next-level program, we unpack the many complexities behind this rapidly expanding field – from parsing language and potential legality outcomes to questions you should ask a facilitator candidate before embarking on your own journey.

They are committed to building business structures that are contribution-driven and committed to reciprocity for indigenous communities. This dynamic duo is up to some great work guys, and we're gonna dig into it right here. Stick around for the outro as they surprise me with a live musical performance to close us out. 

Some of you will, no doubt, want to explore Tah and Kole's psychedelic-informed coaching program. You can do that by visiting lukestorey.com/tahkole. Use the code LUKE250 for $250 off the course!

00:05:07 — Catching Up With Tah & Kole
00:09:46 — Psychedelics in 2022
  • Harmful recreational drugs vs. plant medicine
  • Emerging dysfunction in journey spaces  
  • Intention is everything
  • Drug Use for Grown-Ups by Carl Hart
  • Three levels of addiction
  • Disintegration vs. integration 
00:32:36 — Coaching, Facilitation & Ceremony
00:59:07 — The Condor Approach
02:07:48 — Outro Musical Performance

More about this episode.

Watch on YouTube.

Tah: [00:00:07]I was indoctrinated into the healthcare industry and that drugs are bad, andpsychedelics are going to make me a crackhead and all of this stuff. And I'veseen more positive, expansive transformation in myself and the people that I'vesupported in psychedelics than in my entire career as a nurse. I'm Tah.

Kole: [00:00:26]I'm Kole.

Both Tah & Kole: [00:00:26]And this is the Life Stylist Podcast.

Luke Storey: [00:00:34]Hey, party people, this is Episode 442. You should know that all the notes andall the things for this one are located at lukestorey.com/integrate. This is aspecial one, guys. It features my epic friends Tah and Kole. And if you don'tknow their work yet, they happen to host The Psychedelic Coach Podcast and areco-creators of the Condor Approach, which is a psychedelic-informedcertification for therapists, physicians, life coaches, and health experts.

The potential thesemaster plants and fungi have for moving humanity forward and mental andphysical well-being cannot be ignored. And Tah and Kole are committed tobuilding business structures that are contribution driven and committed toreciprocity for indigenous communities. They are up to some great work guys andwe're going to dig into it right here. 

Now we cover somepretty vast terrain in this conversation, so I'll just briefly tease a coupleof the talking points here and let you know that I highly encourage you to seethis one through to its conclusion because it gets pretty juicy, and I think itcould be useful to many people on the path of awakening. 

We talk about thedifference between recreational drugs and psychedelic medicines, how they eachnavigated negative experience with psychedelic facilitators in their past. Incontrast, we touch on the beautiful Huachuma ceremony Alice and I shared withthem, and they also define a psychedelic-informed coach and why it's soimportant to have one if you're exploring these realms; techniques for creatingboundaries as a coach or facilitator; the legal risks for coaches andtherapists working with these substances; red flags for coaches or facilitatorsto be aware of before engaging with clients; and the most important questionssomeone should ask a coach, facilitator or healing center before working withthem in this capacity; why it's critical to integrate psychedelic work forlasting change. 

And we also spend sometime talking about the industry of psychedelics and its ethics, legality,benefits and potential downside, as well as something I'm really excited aboutpersonally, which is the emerging intersection of addiction recovery andpsychedelics.

We also explore how wemight move forward and innovate this work while still honoring the traditionsfrom which it originated; how we can each support rather than exploit theindigenous people who carried plant medicine traditions forward; thedifferences between synthetic and natural psychedelics. And finally, we discusshow we can increase access to these methods of healing and growth for peoplewith fewer financial resources. 

And before we jump in,some of you will no doubt want to explore Tah and Kole's psychedelic-informedcoaching program. So if you're a therapist, life coach, facilitator, or someonewho supports people in their psychedelic work, this is an incredible way tosystematize your impact and really uplevel your capacity to support yourclients. To learn more about their program, which is, of course, discussed inthe following conversation, here's what you do. Visit lukestorey.com/tahkole,T-A-H-K-O-L-E, lukestorey.com/tahkole. 

And these two lovelyhumans have offered a sweet discount code of $250 off your course. And thatcode is LUKE250. And heads up, this info is, of course, also available in theshow notes on your podcast app. And I'd also like to let you know thatregistration for their upcoming February 2023 event in Austin is now open, but registrationcloses December 15th, 2022.

All right, that's it.Let's welcome Tah and Kole back to the Life Stylist Podcast for their secondappearance to learn how to create deeper healing and access divinity throughthe sacred practice of self-discovery and ceremony. And by all means, if youfeel moved by what you hear today, please send this show to a friend. Allright, here we go. Second time on the Life Stylist Podcast.

Kole: [00:04:23]I have long hair now.

Tah: [00:04:25]My hair is about the same length.

Kole: [00:04:27]Sure.

Luke Storey: [00:04:27]Yours is the same length. Yes, yes. Just about. Last time we recorded-- we wereout here prospecting. That would have been around Christmas time 2020. And wewere trying to feel into Austin and we got to connect with you and a bunch ofother great people. And we were like, "Well, they got the peoplecovered."

Kole: [00:04:46]Well, we started like putting the tendrils in.

Luke Storey: [00:04:49]Yeah. Exactly.

Kole: [00:04:50]And everyone starts to collaborate together to pull in the people we want here.

Luke Storey: [00:04:54]And then we move here, about 5 minutes from you guys, we move in our house andyou move away to downtown. You're like--

Kole: [00:05:02]We are like welcome.

Tah: [00:05:03]Bait and switch.

Luke Storey: [00:05:03]Welcome piece. That's good. I want to start out by knowing, what's the mostexciting thing going on in your individual lives right now each of you? 

Tah: [00:05:13]Ladies first.

Kole: [00:05:14]Man, there's so much. There's a lot that's actually been really confronting forme this last year because having been in the underground for 14 years, nobodyreally knew what I did. I was just that person that was hanging out thateverybody knew, but nobody knew why. And so the thing that's been exciting andchallenging in that excitement has been now getting recognized or just the openconversations around psychedelics. I'm still kind of-- my nervous system isstill getting used to because everything is starting to change really fast now.

When I look at the last14 years, just the last year and a half, 18 months, everything just ramped up.And so it's been exciting because it's been challenging a lot of my ideasaround how things should be in psychedelic space, how you're supposed to trainand who's supposed to train you. And all of that has been challenged becausethe world is changing.

Luke Storey: [00:06:15]Yeah, it certainly has. That's an interesting observation, thinking about myvery recent exploration into this realm, maybe four years ago or so, and I justtook it for granted that it's always been this way, but I just wasn't part ofit because I was in sobriety. And it was just that's those people over there,that's off limits to me. So I don't want to end up under a bridge somewhere.But yeah, now that you say that, I'm like, "Oh, it's a whole thing."All right, cool. So--

Kole: [00:06:41]This is in my family signal group with my Mormon parents in Utah. You know whatI mean?

Luke Storey: [00:06:46]Totally. All right. How about you, Tah? What's happening in your life?

Tah: [00:06:50]The most profound thing for me right now is I just reach 25 seconds in ahandstand at age 50. And that's something that I never perceived possible inthe past. And so it's opening me into another space of what else is possiblefor me and for humanity. And so when I look at myself and I see me in this bodynot wearing glasses anymore, feeling younger, looking younger--

Luke Storey: [00:07:15]Oh, we got to talk about the glasses because as you started talking, not tointerrupt, but as you started talking, I was like, "Fuck, I should wear myglasses." His face is like double vision blurry.

Tah: [00:07:26]There are so many things that have gotten me into a spot where I see thepossibility for myself and I see the possibility for other human beings. Andbeing in the health care industry for as long as, I've been a nurse for 29years and being in a clinical setting for 25 of those 29 years, it was such adistress space where I was looking to fix people, fix people, fix people, andmy objective was to help people stay out of the hospital. And that's what I'vebeen doing.

And leaning into thisspace with us and what we're doing and coaching people around psychedelics,I've seen more transformation in the last 10 years of my life than I have in myentire life. And I mean, it's been radical. The shifts are radical, and I wasindoctrinated into the health care industry and that drugs are bad andpsychedelics are going to make me a crackhead and all of this stuff. And I'veseen more positive, expansive transformation in myself and the people that I'vesupported in psychedelics than in my entire career as a nurse. 

And this is somethingthat I'm an advocate for. This is something that I'm introducing to nurses,doctors, therapists, all of these people, and getting them into this spacewhere they can start to understand this and actually support ushering this into the new wellness paradigm. So that's what I'm most excited about, thehandstands in that.

Kole: [00:08:46]Handstands and?

Kole: [00:08:46]Are you talking a handstand without a wall?

Tah: [00:08:48]No wall, bro. Wall and floor.

Luke Storey: [00:08:50]Damn.

Kole: [00:08:51]He's been working on this for like five years.

Luke Storey: [00:08:52]That's so sick.

Tah: [00:08:53]2016 was my first time making an attempt at a handstand. And I've been dabblingin it-- in this past four months I've been on it and it's just beenconsistently on it. And as I snap into these different spaces, I'm able to seethe nuances in my body in ways that I had never done before.

Luke Storey: [00:09:12]Wow.

Tah: [00:09:12]And so I've opened myself up into a space of realization that I've neverunderstood before. And so I see new possibilities for myself, and that createsnew realms of possibility for the people that I work with.

Kole: [00:09:24]Wow. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I remember years ago doingHatha yoga and great teacher, this guy, Mas Vidal, actually he was on the showway early on and he'd have us to the handstands, but we hit the wall. I mean, 5seconds of that, and I'd be dying, and I was way younger than you are, sothat's awesome, dude.

Tah: [00:09:45]Thank you, man.

Luke Storey: [00:09:46]All right. So I was setting the intention for this conversation that we couldboth speak to the folks listening who are dabbling in the realm of plantmedicines and psychedelics, those that have some experience and are like,"Yeah, we've been on this for a while," like you guys have.
But I also want to speak to the people that are just hearing whispers of thisand going, "What is this all about?"

And I don't know ifthat's possible, but I just want to state that intention as we get in herebecause as I preparing my manuscript, some of the questions were kind of farout and some were very newbie. And I was like, "I got to aim it toward acertain listener." And I thought, you know what? Let's try and just makeit well-rounded.

Tah: [00:10:31]That works for me.

Luke Storey: [00:10:32]So I guess we could start out and this was one of the ones, this kind of-- forpeople that maybe are largely unfamiliar with this topic, but how would youdefine the definition between what we would consider recreational orpotentially dangerous drugs versus intentional healing power plants, plantmedicine, psychedelics, antigens and so on? What's the defining characteristic,do you think, so that people can understand?

Kole: [00:10:58]Well, I mean, it's all intentional. It's just what is the intention.

Luke Storey: [00:11:02]That's good.

Kole: [00:11:03]And this is where my perspective has shifted a lot in the last 2 to 3 years,because previously and the fact that we've trained with a lot of indigenouselders and teachers who come from different traditions and it's a part of theirlifestyle since birth, I had my ideas that if you're doing it in a partysetting, then that was bad or wrong. And my mind has shifted in a lot of waysbecause when I look back, so I first started to explore psychedelics in 1999,but I was doing it in that party going to clubs and that vibe. The rave scenewas big back then.

The thing was though,had it not been for substances back then, I would not have healed from some ofthe traumas that had happened in my teens because those were the only people Icould relate to and talk to. And I ended up in a coma at 17 from GHB. It was acontaminated bad batch of GHB. There was nine of us that ended up in thehospital. And so that's when I realized I couldn't hang out in that scenesafely because I thought I was smart, I was told GHB is not dangerous if youknow what you're doing. We got a contaminated batch we didn't know. 

And so what Irecognized then was that I couldn't be in the crowd in the scene that I was andthat that wasn't the path. But in retrospect, had I not had that explorationback then, I honestly I'm not sure what would have happened because I didn'thave the support that I needed with some of the traumas that had happened andfinding other people that had been through that is what kept me alive longer.And so whether it was cigarettes or alcohol or substances, when I reallystripped back or pulled myself back and remove any of the judgments, then Iactually find that it always comes down to intention.

And sometimes thatintention is partying. I think the difference is when someone realizes thatthey're buffering or avoiding feelings, that path is going to hit a dead end.And so when you intentionally shift it towards, what do I need to know, do, be,or understand about myself, my environment, my choices, then that type ofintention starts to get you somewhere. So for me, the only difference is onetends to lead to a wall that you'll do something about or not, and the otherone becomes an infinite path. And so it just determines what intention do youwant to go towards.

Luke Storey: [00:13:27]I love that. I love that. It's a very nondual way to look at it because I thinkas someone coming out of a history of very destructive drug use to myself andanyone that happened to be in my orbit, I tend to classify-- and it's not ajudgmental thing to people who like to do blow or whatever they're doing, it'sjust I think, well, those are bad because there were bad for me.

Kole: [00:13:52]Sure.

Luke Storey: [00:13:52]And then this other realm that we're going to be speaking about is good. It'skind of this binary way to look at it. But I love that. That's a really greatway to put that realm.

Kole: [00:14:02]We're seeing as much addiction in the shamanic spaces. There's merely lessjudgment on it. And what I mean by that is people can get enough significanceand desire to connect to the oneness, but then when they come back to 3D anddon't actualize any of the changes to bring heaven on Earth, then they have tojourney again, which can be just as dysfunctional and cause them to not pay billsand go into a deep depression because they realize where they aren't butthey're not taking the steps. It just doesn't come with the same judgments assomeone with a needle in an alley, but we are seeing as much dysfunction injourney spaces too.

Tah: [00:14:40]For me, what comes into play and make the difference in those spaces isinformation in the form of context, judgment, and indoctrination. And so thecontext that a person uses a substance in has a lot to do with how they areeducated and informed on it. And how they're judged on it and how we judge thesubstance or the substance use in an indoctrinated space puts us into a placeto determine if something is good or bad.

Now, when you look atthis country, partying, having a great time, people getting together, cookingout at a picnic, it's a great thing. It's fun, except is it a good thing whenyou're hanging somebody from a tree and you're having a picnic to celebratethat? And so where's the judgment? Where's the context? Where's the indoctrination?

Kole: [00:15:32]Well, that went deep.

Luke Storey: [00:15:33]We're going deep.

Tah: [00:15:35]Yeah. I mean, if we're going to go there, let's go.

Luke Storey: [00:15:37]Let's do it.

Tah: [00:15:37]And so when you look at substances, I have a very close friend who utilizescocaine to journey with. And this person, he's very intentional, sets up hishouse, has incense burning, music playing very intentional with it and he'svery dose specific with it. And he goes in and this is how he expands. And hecomes back from his realms with all of this stuff and it's an occasionalcircumstance. It's not a situation that happens all the time. 

And so this person isinformed. He's educated, experienced in this space. It doesn't disrupt his entirelife. And when he told me, I was like, "Man, what are you doing?" Iwas a nurse, all this judgment space. And it took me getting into the space ofunderstanding outside of my context with psychedelics to start to understandthat he wasn't just messing around. He was really going into his space oflearning about himself using that substance, something that was foreign tome. 

And so in learningabout this, I got to remove my judgment, I got to remove my indoctrination, andI got to change my context around that space with the information that I nowhad. And so the judgment states that we put ourselves in around recreation,recreation in our world is a good thing until it's not. And if you have toomuch recreation, it's a bad thing. If you feel too good, it's a bad thing. Andso we dam a lot of things where people are looking to feel good and we dam thethings that would remove people from feeling horrible about themselves ordepressed, which could be substances that would put people into these spaces. 

So my invitation forfolks is to look into the information space in the form of context, judgment,and indoctrination. Those are the three factors for me that would lean intoseeing a difference, a bifurcation in that space.

Luke Storey: [00:17:23]You're remind me-- you guys know Carl Hart, right?

Tah: [00:17:27]Yeah, Drug Use for Grown-Ups.

Luke Storey: [00:17:29]Yeah. What's his book called?

Both Tah & Kole: [00:17:30]Drug Use for Grown-Ups.

Luke Storey: [00:17:30]Yeah. Amazing book. That freaking book blew my mind because a lot of it-- andhopefully you guys know him personally?

Both Tah & Kole: [00:17:38]No. 

Luke Storey: [00:17:39]Okay, yeah because I tried to get him on an interview and I never heard back,so I'm going to try again. If anyone knows him, shout out to Dr. Carl Hart. Butin that book, amongst many of the mind-blowing paradigms that he just explodedwas talking about how he uses heroin recreationally. And no judgment, but as aformer heroin addict--

Kole: [00:17:58]You're like, what?

Luke Storey: [00:17:59]My recreational period was probably about three weeks, and then it was likefive years of the real deal. And I think a lot of that is circumstantial anddependent on your trauma and your genes, probably even. But one thing I reallyliked from his perspective was and this is kind of a little bit of what you'retouching on maybe is the preconceived ideas we have around drugs, and a lot ofthat has been imposed upon us where when cannabis started bleeding into Westernculture it was like, "Oh, those dirty Mexicans, it's their drug." Andit's like a dangerous drug, reefer madness and all that stuff. But there waslike a racial component to it. And then also with heroin it's like the blackjazz musicians are using it and then they're like, "Aha, now we can pin iton them."

Kole: [00:18:44]Even though it's predominantly white people doing it.

Luke Storey: [00:18:45]Yeah. But I love how he explored the systemic kind of the brainwashing aroundit, around prohibition.

Kole: [00:18:56]Even if you look at something like sexuality, if you come from a deeplyindoctrinated religious culture, the shame alone of a sexual experience, whenwe look at it through a trauma lens, because from a facilitation perspective,when we're doing an intake process, we're not just taking in their currentmedical-- what medications they may be taking. 

We're looking at theircultural considerations, the environment of their childhood. Are they first generationAmerican? Were their parents immigrants? Were they the immigrant? There's somany factors. There are gender dynamic, sex that play into all the habits thatcreate this organism and how it functions. And so deep shame becomes aconstruct that works through someone's system to self-oppress, and oppress, andoppress. 

And so even looking atsomething where if someone thinks heroin is bad and they've now crossed thatline, their thought about the action can create the feeling that takes themover the edge, that's pushing that shame dynamic. So if none of that existed,the judgment on a substance, and we only looked at the results, if we onlysaid, okay, so this person does heroin just every single day, but they've donethis company that contributes $10 billion to end sex slave trafficking would wesee that as a problem? 

And so for us, ourbiggest thing is we do what we can from a coaching perspective to literallyjust look at the results, is someone getting what they want or they're lookingto grow and if they're going off track, how far. And then it's asking them, areyou okay with the results? I love smoking cigarettes, point blank period. Love.And the thing is, there is a point that it's detrimental to my organism. And sothe thing is now if I smoke a cigarette, I'm so present to it, I'm in fullgratitude--

Tah: [00:20:52]It's interesting to watch.

Kole: [00:20:53]Yeah. And-- 

Luke Storey: [00:20:54]You're able to do that?

Kole: [00:20:55]Yeah. And I'll go through a three-week smoking period and just stop.

Luke Storey: [00:21:00]Oh, my gosh.

Kole: [00:21:00]It just fades out because there is an intention. For me, remember, tobacco's amaster plant also, it's for grounding. And even me in a smoking phase might betwo in a day. So it's not suddenly going to a pack I'm throwing back. Myintention is always to get really good quality tobacco. And sometimes I'm justratchet and do what I want, which is cool too. But whe I--

Luke Storey: [00:21:26]Gives cool menthols etc.

Kole: [00:21:30]Oh, no. Okay, she-- 

Luke Storey: [00:21:30]It is a Newports.

Kole: [00:21:31]No, she does have standards. But when I look at the results-- when you learnradical self-acceptance and honesty, then you go, okay, so here's where I wantto be. And let's say I have physical fitness goals. If this is impacting mylung capacity, which is more important to me right now, sometimes the groundingof tobacco, if I'm in a rough mental place, is more important in the moment.And other times staying uncomfortable is more important to get to thegoal. 

And so this is wheredeveloping systems of radical honesty, which is like the coaching methods, thegroundwork for what we do, is that you get to choose, this is your life. But ifyou'll remove the stigmas or at least be aware of them, but truly, look at thedata, what is the outcome? What's your physical health? Are you enjoying yourlife? What direction are you going? Then what difference does it make?

And when I reach thatlevel of self-acceptance for myself, that's why I could go a year or two years,not have a single puff of a cigarette and then go three weeks straight. But Iknow my body so well now that I could hold food in my hand and if my body islike, "I won't eat it." I could have a full plate of food I've had1000 times. That took time and really intimately getting to know my body andknowing my body's cues and really trusting that no one's the expert ofme. 

Most of the medicalconditions I had, surgeries when something didn't go right, I was the one thatfigured it out afterwards because I have studied this system and I know it.

Luke Storey: [00:23:06]Yeah, I like the peace of looking at the results. By their fruits, you shall knowthem kind of thing. And this was a huge hurdle for me when I was 22 yearssober, living my best life, growing and changing, but still stuck in someplaces. And when I made the leap, I got such incredible results and expansionand healing that I continued on with I think, a pretty decent degree of cautionand discernment. 

But after about threeyears of that, I got a call from my dad and he was like, "Hey, can wetalk?" And he says-- actually, no. I had the first call from a mentor Iused to have in recovery. Same call, two different people. Both of them went alittle something like this, "Hey, man, what's going on with you and thesepsychedelics and stuff? Are you cool?"

And I knew that I wascool, but I had to explain to them to alleviate some of their worry and theirconcerns. And the thing that came to me was, okay, let me just look at all themetrics of my life in every conceivable way, in every category of my life, myinternal mental, emotional, spiritual life, my sexuality, my finances, everythingoutward, career, relationship, every single thing if you had a chart was like afucking hockey stick of just, brut, doing great. 

And if I was usingaddictively like the way I was with the intention I had, which is just slowlyor maybe quickly kill myself, that would be an upside-down hockey stick where Iwould lose everything in a matter of weeks or months. My entire life would beburned to the ground because I did it many times. I know what that looks like,so I love that. You were going to add something to that, Tah?

Tah: [00:24:52]Yeah, I have something that I can add to it. When I look at the lens ofsubstances, and addiction, and usage and these types of things, as a nurse, Itook care of a lot of people that dove into substances, and most of them werenot addicted. And there are three levels that I see people using substances--crushing, coping, and survival. 

There are people whowould crush on substances. Every once in a while they need to take the edge offof life. Then there are people who use substances to cope with what was goingon. And then there were people who I saw that were addicted, were doing it forsurvival, and survival that they wouldn't kill themselves or that it was barelykeeping them alive.

Luke Storey: [00:25:34]Very familiar.

Tah: [00:25:35]Right? Okay. And so these are the three spaces that I've seen people in. Andthe crushing was usually the recreational people, the people who were doing itfor recreational purposes. The coping were the people who were looking to keeptheir families together or glue themselves to a circumstance or stay in theirjob or whatever.

And then the survivalpeople, those are the people who were, "This is the only way that I canfeel good enough at some point to give myself a reason to be alive on thisplanet." And so I worked at over 13 hospitals in New York City because Iwanted to see the different socioeconomic backgrounds, the different racialcultural ethnic situations. And it was the same thing for everybody. There wascrushing, coping, and survival no matter who was using substances. It was inthose three spaces. And that's what I saw. 

And so this also wasone of the reasons why I was like, "I see this so clearly. How come nobodyelse sees this?" I wanted to get out of nursing because the system wasstill fortifying people staying in the same loops. Our mental health system wasnot helping people to see themselves and be fulling themselves. It was helpingthem to be repeat customers. And so this was problematic. 

This was an issuebecause the drug war, it was very few people. And that was being broadcastedand accentuated by our media. And the majority of people that were usingsubstances weren't in an addictive space. And so this caused me a lot ofconfusion in myself, which caused me to want to get out of the healthcareindustry because I saw a lot of lying going on.

And so I just wanted tobring that into the conversation because these are the spaces around all drugsare bad. It's not the drugs that are bad. It's the drugs that are being usedfor these reasons. Are we aware that they're being used for these reasons? Andthe people that are using these substances need our help more than anybody. Andwe're damning them. We're punishing them. We're sending them to jail. We'resending them to rehab places. We're not hiring them. We're doing all of thesethings, instead of offering them the support that would really help themintegrate their lives and their lives are disintegrated. And that's whyintegration is so important to me.

Kole: [00:27:43]I love that Tah just saying that about integration because people going tothese power plant master mycelium experiences, they are disintegrated, theycome out, they go back to work on Monday, and then journeying becomes another wayto buffer or to just let some air out, just enough to continue forward. 

And for me, when I gotreally honest with myself, at first I took suicide off the table. So when Imade that decision that I wouldn't take my own life intentionally in that way,that was like phase one. Phase two was realizing I had only changed the speedof my suicide. I had only decided not to do it quickly. 

And the thing that wasmore insidious in this, in my own healing journey was I was slowly killingmyself with what I ate-- fast food, drinking the cheapest magnum bottles ofwine like Boones Farm style from a gas station, Ambien to sleep, energy drinksto wake up. And that was killing me more than any other substance was. 

But socially, that wasacceptable. And if we really just removed the stigma from any substances andlooked at how someone's life was operating, like how is it functioning forthem, if you took away Netflix, cell phones, people that are busy and alwayscreating is also an adaptation. 

You can have two kidsfrom the same family where one becomes an addict and the other becomes asuccessful CEO, but the hypervigilance of a CEO could be causing trauma intheir children because of the compliance they force or they end up having ahealth crash because they're suppressing emotion. And we've seen this moretimes than I can count. 

And so if we onlylooked at the results and then at different ages, are we happy with theresults? Then that's when my life started actually to improve was the radicalhonesty and always not in the ways that I was told was bad, but actuallylooking at how is my body functioning, how is my life functioning, how iseverything going? I feel great about it? Perfect.

Luke Storey: [00:29:49]Yeah. Amen. You just reminded me of something when you're talking about thecheap wine. Oh, my God. Drinking 40 ounces of malt liquor, man.

Tah: [00:29:56]Yeah, me. 

Luke Storey: [00:29:58]Two bucks. They're like two bucks.

Kole: [00:30:00]Totally.

Luke Storey: [00:30:00]And then if we only had two bucks, we would water it down. I just rememberedthis. And me and my homie Ronnie-- shout out to Ronnie. He probably never heardmy podcast before. We'd say, "Let's make some Budweiser." So we takeKing Cobra and we just add water. King Cobra is disgusting in and of itself,but when you add some water, you do not have a Budweiser, by the way, to ourfriends listening.

Tah: [00:30:23]King Cobra, Colt 45, old English 800.

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So I won't spend toomuch time on this because I really want to get into the coaching facilitation,all of this stuff that you guys are into now. And you have incredibleofferings. And so I want to get into that. But I'm curious because I don'tthink I've ever asked either of you this, what was the moment or the decidingfactor when you went from a participant in ceremony and started experiencingpositive results and healing to your first journey, you're leading for someonebecause you guys have facilitated Alyson and I in a legal location, and you'revery skilled at it.

Kole: [00:33:11]Thank you.

Tah: [00:33:11]Thank you.

Luke Storey: [00:33:11]We felt incredibly safe in health and it was a really beautiful experience. ButI don't think I ever got the origin story of like, when did you break off andgo, "Wow, I want to do this. I'm going to learn and start doing it?"

Kole: [00:33:22]I see a lot of people come into this work with this idea that there's just thismoment and then you step into it and you're now a facilitator. First of all, ifyou're doing that, let's talk. You definitely need to come to one of ourtrainings. The thing was when you first get the call, it's like when someonedecides they want to become a doctor. So you do premed and then you go tomedical school and then you do residency. There is a process before youactually are on your own doing surgery and you start a team, whatever.

And so it was anevolutionary process, one that we were more resistant than accepting of. And itreally wasn't until enough people came to us because we kept putting togethergroups for facilitators. And it wasn't until enough people were like, "Idon't want to sit with them." Like, "When are you all going to doit?" Because first, I spent six years on my own healing journey. I had alot of medical conditions. There's lots of podcasts on it as far as my healingjourney, but I spent six years. I needed to figure it. I had a lot to sort inmy physical health. 

And so by the time Tahand I started doing the work together, I had been six years in myself and thenhe's got 11 years on me. So he was already doing forms of work that wasn'tpsychedelics. And so when we started going to journeys together, we would sitand facilitate people because of our experience, but we were not thefacilitator. We were integrators. 

And so we startedgetting invited just to come be of service and hold space, and then thatstarted to be where we started to be more involved over time. And so therewasn't a moment. I don't even remember our first time facilitating officiallyor something. Do you?

Tah: [00:35:08]Oh, I do.

Kole: [00:35:09]Oh, I bet you do remember everything.

Tah: [00:35:10]Oh, yeah, I do. And as she was saying as a process and it was one thing afterthe next. And people were asking us, "Please, please, please." Andthe thing is, we have this way of accepting people, radical acceptance of allpeople where we were getting-- our love is really, really big. And we do a lotof kissing and hugging and making out. 

We were told atjourneys that we couldn't kiss anymore, that our love was triggering people.And so we started to see other people not being accepted in journey spaces. Andso it gave us more kind of a push to lean into--

Kole: [00:35:47]Your joy is too much for this trauma continuum.

Tah: [00:35:50]And so it gave us kind of a push into a space where people were like,"Please, I see how free y'all are. I want to be in that free energy. Doyou think you can do that?" And so we ended up leaning into that space. Itwas an honor for people to ask us to be in that space. It was also frighteningbecause I was like, "I'm not a facilitator."

Kole: [00:36:09]Who am I? I haven't trained enough.

Tah: [00:36:11]And this is where we started.

Kole: [00:36:15]Part of what really shifted-- and this is where a lot of our perspectiveshifted as well is in this last year and a half, there's been an awakening,unlike I have seen in the last 14 years, of people that feel they are socertain they're called to be facilitators or in this work in some way. 

And I truly believethat through these master teachers, many people's ancestral traditions arebeing awakened for the next evolution of elders, for art, because this culturedoesn't have elders. And so many peoples has been stripped away that it feelsto me like an awakening. And this is not just here in the States, our teachersfrom South America and beyond like to Arctic Siberia are seeing similar things,more shamans being born. 

And so what we've alsoseen is that more people are getting the call. That's what caused us to fullystep out and start to educate because I also believe that everyone can supportsomeone. You just need to get clear in what you know, what you don't, what yourskill sets are, what they are not. Because just like CPR, if I was out and Iwas the only person there, even though I've only taken like two, four-hourclasses, I would do the best I could if I was the only person there. I'm thebest person for the job. 

And we have lots ofcommunities in the States that don't have professional support. They don't havea shaman or an indigenous elder. And so there will be people that feel safestwith someone that looks like them, someone with a similar lived experience, andthat level of safety. If someone feels safe to explore themselves, is quiteoften all they need, is a safe container for step one. 

And so that's when wereally decided that's what we wanted to empower, was that for the leaders ofeach community to come forward so that we could give them frameworks so thatthey could see are we in alignment with what we want? Are we educated? Becausewithout education, people can't choose how they're participating in thesethings.

Luke Storey: [00:38:08]Wow, that's awesome. I love the way that you're approaching that, you guys.It's very cool. And I think part of that question is for myself too, and I'msure many people share this. But when you have such a profound experiencewithin yourself and you break through lifelong patterns and you have theseecstatic experiences with the divine and all of the things that are potentiallyhappening in a ceremony, it's quite common that I come out of it and I'm like,"I need to do this. This is my calling." And then a couple of days goby and I'm like, "Well, I'm going to do my podcast thing."

Kole: [00:38:43]Well, stick with the podcast.

Luke Storey: [00:38:45]And that is especially prevalent any time I've sat with Buffet, with the Toad.And even saying it now, I'm like, "You're probably right." But afterthose I was like, literally nothing else matters. I have to do this. Then I goback to life and then it's like, "Oh, well, what about that?" Well,I'd have to go train under someone. And the logistics of it and feelingqualified I think is something that I'm honest with myself about that thosesituations could be potentially dangerous in a number of ways, especially withthat.

Kole: [00:39:17]But this is the thing is like we don't actually ascribe to that. Through properintake, there should be zero harm with all substances. It doesn't mean it'simpossible. But the medicalization models that are being rolled out areactually including harm. So for them, if they're saying, we're having anefficacy of 80% of people, rock on, that's better than any otheranti-depressant or medication that's available on the market. 

So you as Luke just hadthis incredible experience. Just statistically, you're still probably fine.It's people that know and trust you. And this is not to condone any illegalbehavior by anyone, merely to say that when we work with elders, the harm iszero because they know the proper intake process to understand if this is theright direction for someone. 

And so by clearlyeducating people and what they need to know, do, be, or understand from theintake process, you would already know if this is something each individualperson is comfortable with because for us it's not rocket science actually. Nowthat we tracked it for such a long time, it's quite clear in our data what thepotentials are. 

Now, I don't knowwhat's going to happen in someone's experience, but because of their life,because of how their parents are, have been, or how they're physicallymanifesting illness and disease right now, we can pretty much guess what'sgoing to be on the other side of their experience. Two possibilities whichhelps to educate and inform the person and create what we call what happenswhen. So if you get this outcome, what do we do? If you get this outcome, whatdo we do? And then people are there to choose. And it's a collaboration versusa diagnosis or a treatment. So it's a completely different approach.

Luke Storey: [00:41:04]Yeah, I like that.

Tah: [00:41:05]It's an integrated approach. And the way we see integration, the whole processis integration. The psychedelic experience is a part of a process ofintegration. From when you first start considering that you want to make ashift in your existence, you're integrating a potential, and then when you leaninto having an intention, you're creating an intention, you're integrating thatintention. 

When you bring in afacilitator or a shaman or a therapist, you express your intention with them.They do an intake on you, you do an intake on yourself, you bring theinformation together, that information becomes integrated, the personsupporting becomes informed.

And so if anythingshould come up in the experience or after the experience, we know how tonavigate. When we ask you, "Okay, if this happens, what would you like usto do? How would you like to be supported?" It gives us a safety net. Itgives the person an idea that they will be safe. So the psychedelics don't haveto go in and pound their way in. They go in gently and they stir the pot andbring things to the surface to be explored.

When the person is in apsychedelic experience, since we've gone through their life situation, not justtheir mindset, but their body set, their social set, the setting of theirconstructs, be their race, gender identity, nationality, so forth, all of thesethings and their social set, we know what these person is navigating. So it'snot a surprise to us if anything should come up.

We know how to redirecta person back to their intention and then afterwards we help them to integratethat and mesh that with their life, with their job, with their family, withwhatever it is as a new person that's coming back with all this newinformation. And so the whole process of what we're looking at is integration.

Luke Storey: [00:42:48]That's awesome because rather than looking at an experience like this as you'reliving your life, you're on a flat plane and then you go into a ceremony or atherapy session and fireworks go off, that was the thing, but what you'resaying is the whole process is the thing and that those fireworks in the middleof the story are merely just part of the landscape of a more broad--

Kole: [00:43:17]Exactly. Yeah. Well, so you just remodeled a house, so this will make sense foryou. What a lot of people want is they're uncomfortable with some part of theirlife. So they seek out a facilitator and they're like, "Let's just doharder, faster, more now. I'm going to go to the jungle and do 10 Ayahuascaceremonies in 14 days. I'm going to get to the other side of my trauma and thenI'll be able to come back and everything's going to be better."

We have to look likeTah was saying, the body set. If they've got adrenal system, just like they'retotally fatigued, if they're having strange allergies or strange skin things,just signs that the body is already in a lot of distress, going into somethinglike Ayahuasca could actually make things worse because their body is depleted.The body will reach a point it will completely shut down. 

And so just likeremodeling a house, what we teach from a coaching method, because again, we'renot teaching facilitation, we're helping in education and integration as anentire process. What we can educate someone is someone may come to me with thatexample and say, "All right, so in remodeling my internal landscape, Iwant to take this load-bearing wall of trauma because I think that if I justrip the root out on this deep wound, then I'll be free."

We call itpsychotecture. We're looking at the inner architecture and load-bearing walls.And so because of our assessment process, I could go, "Hey, Luke, I knowthat you want to take this wall out and get an open concept, and you'll feellike there will be more space in your system." 

But that adaptation isalso giving you the ability to work. And if you lose that ability to work andyou can't support your children, your family, pay for your bills, I'm concernedthat that could then slide into a depressive state because you can't pay forthe wellness checkups and things you need to be supported in your life. 

And so what that meansis where can we create support systems that if someone's going to do that work,beautiful. But we want to make sure that there is an infrastructure to supportsomething big like that being compromised or taken out because if it's aload-bearing part of someone's existence, the whole thing can come collapsingin. And then it's two years if you have the resources for support.

Luke Storey: [00:45:31]I've seen it happen. That thing of too much, too fast, not thoughtful, you'regone for months. One of my friends, he was out for about a year. Just tooenthusiastic.

Kole: [00:45:45]Too much too fast. That creates trauma too in the system.

Luke Storey: [00:45:48]Have either of you ever had any negative experiences with facilitators who wereill-equipped to handle the grid, the space?

Tah: [00:45:59]In an experience that we were having?

Luke Storey: [00:46:01]Yeah, that you were having as a participant.

Tah: [00:46:02]I have not.

Kole: [00:46:03]No. I had people I didn't resonate with that were not space holders for me. Andthis is why someone may come highly recommended to you and be great foreveryone, but they're not for you. And so I had a facilitator that I startedlaughing when they were trying to do a very serious meditation, but the morethey tried to repress me for that, then it became that when you're trying tonot laugh thing. And so then I got up because they asked me to leave the spaceif I couldn't. Their idea of reverence varies. 

And people's ideas andprojections come into facilitation too. And I was raised in a religion whereyou cross your arms and bow your head to be reverent. So now I'm not beingreverent for this experience, and so they asked me to leave. But I'm like,"I'm not going off by myself right now. I'm getting ready to dropin." So I grabbed Tah's hand and I'm like, "Oh, you're coming with mebecause I'm not going up by myself."

And the more I'm tryingnot to laugh, it's turning into that out of the nose and it's just gettinglouder. And the building we were in was like stone and travertine, so it's justechoing off everything. And I don't even know where I'm running Tah to becauseI'm just trying to get away from the space before I just completely explode inlaughter, which was apparently super offensive. 

And we sat and laughedlike full belly for three or four hours. And it was the first time in my life Irealized that I was done purging through suffering and that laughter was nowthe way that I could heal and move forward and that those kind of containershad had their time for me to be intentional as far as head bow alone, be quiet.It was like, "No, now is the time to be big." 

And that's when thatreally informed how we hold containers where we say everything is welcomebecause we know how to set the context. We know how to talk through what thatcould look like. No one's allowed to just do anything in a moment. You cometalk to me if you need something because we recognize there wasn't space forbig energies. You were supposed to lay on your mat, be quiet, be still. Andwe're like, "Now is not the time to be quiet or be still."

Tah: [00:48:09]Yeah, bringing it back to remembering that weekend, I'm going to change myanswer to that because it was the same facilitation space that the next day Iwas having a conversation with somebody that came to me and asked me to helpthem navigate something. I was helping them navigate that. The facilitator wasupset that I was supporting this person and they weren't and came and told methat I was being too much. And so I have a very interesting talent of beingable to pull myself out of an altered space--

Kole: [00:48:42]No matter how much.

Tah: [00:48:43]No matter how much. And so I said, okay. And I pulled myself completely out ofit, and I went and I sat in a room by myself, and I just contemplated what wasgoing on and I never wanted to be a part of again. So I do want to change that.That was the one time that I had that-- and I think that was the snap time thatactually got us--

Kole: [00:49:02]To step forward. Yeah.

Tah: [00:49:02]To step forward. So yeah, so bringing it back around.

Kole: [00:49:05]Yeah, there really wasn't a place for us. And I think that was a big part in usmoving to Austin. And a lot of the people we've ended up working with over theyears was that it's people with big missions and purpose whose energies requiremore space actually. And so that made perfect sense to us where we were like,right, where can people go do big yell, scream? Because for us, even psychosisor anything doesn't concern us. We don't have that concern even if it's insomeone's history. We have different questions. We have different things totalk through.

We've worked withpeople with identity disorders, manic, bipolar, on medications. If they hadcommunity support, a therapist, clear systems in their life, and as far astheir own functioning, super functioning. They had a support system. And thenthere was a plan and we talked to the therapist. Everyone was informed of thisaction.

And so for us, there'san incredible YouTube video by Kitty Sipple, and if you look The Gates ofMadness, they literally share as someone with multiple disorders that's notsupposed to do psychedelics that people with a lot of these conditions live inmadness. So they have an easier time navigating psychedelics as a result, giventhey have the right support system and they live in a safe environment. Becausewhere we see truly that when people end up coming to us after a psychosis,psychedelics or not, we coach people for lots of reasons. And psychosis is atransformational experience.

No matter what bringsthem to us, usually, the psychosis happens in an environment where there wastremendous trauma, so it's usually back around family is the time we see it themost often.

Luke Storey: [00:50:56]Yeah, well, it's funny that you guys developed this style of facilitation. AndI want to get into after this delineating what you guys teach and facilitating,it's getting a little pushed up. But back to you as former facilitators or Idon't know what you're doing now, but luckily we got in--

Kole: [00:51:15]Once a year in Costa Rica or Peru.

Luke Storey: [00:51:18]But when Alyson and I sat with you two and had a beautiful experience withHuachuma, otherwise known as San Pedro for those listening who are unfamiliarwith that word, there was a lot of intake, long phone call, you knew a lotabout us, where we were in our lives, our experience with prior medicine, allthe things, but what I thought was really cool about it was that it was justyou're on your own, do your own thing and also knowing that you two are rightthere if we needed anything at all, whether it's a banana or a shoulder to cryon or whatever. 

And I just had my ownexperience and I'd run into Alyson and she'd just be off laughing and lookingat the clouds and we'd kind of hug, "Oh, bye." And then I'm off tothe pool, sitting in the waterfall and just doing my thing. So really it was verysafe. But I think that safety was also put in place by the fact that you knew alot about us, and I knew that.

So if anything comesup, I know that I can go to either of you and you're going to help me workthrough it. And it turns out I didn't really need any help that day. But thenat the end of the night, all four of us came together, and then we starteddoing some work, which was pretty new to me at that point. 

I'm kind of like solomish journey guy. Talking to people is usually not in my repertoire. And weworked through some really I mean, it wasn't that sticky, but it was like stuffthat would have had a different flavor just in normal waking stateconversation. And we had a really beautiful time. That's only because we feltlike talking to you about it and we were in that space. And if we hadn't, Ifelt like you would have just said, "Okay, go do your thing." So it'sa perfect blend, I guess, is what I'm saying, of being there for someone, butalso knowing how much you're needed and being cool with that.

Kole: [00:53:04]Well, to be honest, the difference is when you as a facilitator don't have anoutcome. I didn't need you to get anywhere. And so the problems that we see iswhen facilitators want people to have transformation so much, it becomes aboutthe facilitator, not the people. We don't need you to be different than youever are. If we have gifts and tools to help someone illuminate withinthemselves, for sure. Do we have skills? 100%. Don't need to prove it though.

And so to be able torelax and sit back, our invitation is always for people to explore and usetheir own tools first. That's what got them to where they are. They'rebeautiful. We want to integrate those. It's that we don't have an outcome. Ifyou talk to us, don't talk to us, it doesn't matter.

Tah: [00:53:49]There's no attachment to outcome. It's not about me. And this is one of thethings that we teach people is how to hold space. I am holding the space foryou to have an experience. You show me and tell me what your intention is and Isupport the container that supports that. 

And if you are outsideof that space, I can ask you, do you remember what your intention was? Are youstill interested in that intention? Cool. Would you like some support and beingswung back to that? So I can remind you what that is and that's it. And so thisis the supporting of your experience, your tears if you get sad and all of thatstuff--

Kole: [00:54:26]Raging, screaming, breaking stuff.

Tah: [00:54:27]Raging, screaming, that's not my experience. I'm here to support you and makesure that you are in a space where your body is safe, your mind is safe, andall of these things-- and you're keeping yourself safe. I'm not making yousafe. I'm providing you the environment and the stimulus for you to be safe inyour expansion and exploration of self. 

There are facilitatorsthat want people to have transformations, that want people to see God, thatwant people to be better because they see them as broken, which is an undertoneof shame. And this is something that we teach people to stay out of, especiallyif a person is going to be facilitating. That is an important part of theintegration process to let a person have their experience. You can supportsomebody without altering their experience because you feel uncomfortable.

Luke Storey: [00:55:09]Yeah, it's what I sensed and I have a sense this with many facilitators holdingspaces is just a sense of safety. It's like living near the police station. Idon't really need them, but if you do, you're glad they're five minutes away,which I currently I'am. We blew a propane line. I was like, "Are thoseguys living in the backyard? They were here in like 30 seconds."

Tah: [00:55:34]Wow.

Luke Storey: [00:55:34]But it's a sense of security just knowing that there's someone there that canhandle shit if it gets wonky. And almost in that knowing things don't get wonkybecause you have the wherewithal within your own soul to work it out as you go.And it gets--

Kole: [00:55:49]It's when people panic that it goes sideways. When they feel someone doesn'thave them, then that is when their nervous system kicks in. They can't thinkclearly. The more at ease someone is, the deeper they can go into their experiencebecause the first step is the physical body has to feel safe to allow theconscious mind or the consciousness to travel space and time andwhatever. 

If the physical body isnot safe, it's going to impact the experience for sure. And the more relaxedyou are, if something challenging comes up, you're like, "And I can justbreathe."

Luke Storey: [00:56:22]You mentioned the year that you started working with psychedelics and I waslike, "What year was it for me?" It was 1987. Home EC class in highschool was my first acid trip. It came on and that was 10 years of prettyhorrible psychedelic experiences that I just kept going back to over and overagain because it was the exact opposite of what we're describing here. It'slike totally unsafe environment, total chaos many times. 

And also everything wasvery random. Not only no intention, but just we don't know where we're going,who's going to be there. Talk about no set and setting, the worst possiblescenarios you can imagine. 

Kole: [00:57:04]It is all the sets and settings.

Luke Storey: [00:57:05]Yeah. I mean, it's just like, oh God, for those that have had those type ofexperiences, it's beautiful to illustrate what it can be if it's donethoughtfully.

Tah: [00:57:16]Yeah.

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That brings me intowhat I was alluding to earlier, and so you guys have the Condor approach. Youhave this training program, which my friend David Keller has been raving about,"Oh, my God, Tah and Kole program." And I'm so glad he found youbecause he's very enthusiastic and not new to psychedelics, but new to usingthem in this capacity.

Kole: [00:59:30]Coaching is a different thing.

Luke Storey: [00:59:32]So give me the breakdown because you guys aren't teaching people how to goserve medicine to people. You're doing something else. So let me get clarity onthat for people listening.

Kole: [00:59:41]Yeah. So we break things down, and Tah, I'll actually turn it over to youbecause the way you break down just the different roles between sherpafacilitator because I think that that will give great context to guide us intothis conversation.

Tah: [00:59:55]Sure. So there are different levels. So the way we break things down and thisis all context-driven, there's a person who's a trip sitter. And a trip sitteris a foundational person who can hold space for a person that's having anexperience. They may not have experience facilitating and guiding peoplethrough, but they know how to keep an environment safe. They know how to walksomebody to the bathroom. They know how to set up a room. That's a tripsitter. 

A space holder is aperson that's like a trip sitter plus, the trip sitter and they can actuallyhold space for a person and maybe guide a person back to their intention. Theymaybe know how to see where a person may be going and swing them backaround. 

A facilitator is aperson who's skilled at space holding, trip sitting, and plus. And so they canactually help guide a person into really, really deep spaces because they knowhow to navigate psychedelic spaces themselves really well. They've been adeptat it. They've been in the psychedelic space in particular. Hopefully, they'reguiding a person with a substance that they know how to navigate. So that's afacilitator. 

A sherpa is a personwho can go into the space like shaman, who are doing Ayahuasca. They'll takeAyahuasca and they'll be in the field with a person. And so a sherpa goes inand they will actually alter because they are so good at navigatingpsychedelics. They know how to hold that space and that container and be in it.There's a different vibrational quality to it where they can actually guide aperson, feel a person's situation and be in there with them. It's takingsomebody into the mountains. You're a sherpa. And so those are the differentspaces.

An integration coach isa person who actually can coach a person from the beginning of the process,through the entire process, and then after the process to integrate everythinginto their lives. So this is like an overseer. And we always invite people whoare space holders, who are facilitators, who are sherpas to be able to coachintegration because you're part of an integration process.

And this is somethingthat we've been finding has been a challenge for people, is because people arenot guiding people into integration. You have this experience, you have acircle at the end of the journey and then you go do whatever you do. And thenpeople are coming to me, Kole, because it's like, "I don't know what todo. My life falling apart." 

You will integratethings whether you realize or not. Are you the person that's influencing yourintegration? Are you the person that knows how to drive the bus? Are you thecaptain of the ship, or is the ship driving you into out to sea on yourown? 

And so those are thedifferences in those spaces. And what we teach is how people can do an intakeprocess. If you're going to be guiding people through journeys as afacilitator, if you don't have an intake process, you're asking for it.

Kole: [01:02:36]Well, and it's going to cost you time and money for sure. And that's what werealized is, one, we actually don't need more facilitators. Beyond the factthat it's not legal--

Tah: [01:02:48]In most places.

Kole: [01:02:49]In most places, there's a few key things people don't understand. One, it'slike everyone wants to be the facilitator. It's like Steven Tyler. You knowwhat I mean? They're like, "No, I'm going to be an aerosmith. I want to beSteven Tyler." And so we get that. We understand there's a lot ofsignificance. That's wonderful. Part of it--

Luke Storey: [01:02:49]The responsibility, though, man, if you really understand the gravity of that.

Kole: [01:03:10]Well, when you really get clear and your true intention, if it's to helppeople, then the current model to help people is what we call apsychedelic-informed coach. You are the engineer that's looking at all theinformation where someone's giving you their big vision and you're going tohelp them architect that and coach them through that model.

But it's all theiridea. They come with the design. They say, "Look, I'm going to go doAyahuasca. I'm going to go sit with Ayahuasca in Peru. After this, when I comeback, can we get-- where does the rubber meet the road from my transformationto the realization to the actualization?" 

Because what happens ispeople go on a trip, like to a retreat. They come back, they slide back intothe old ways because it's the path of least resistance. And so it fades. And sofor us in time, the problem is you can't know what you know. So you go have thebig realizations, you don't actualize it, but now you know about it.

Luke Storey: [01:04:05]Brutal.

Kole: [01:04:05]Right. And that's when we start to see it degrade the health.

Luke Storey: [01:04:09]That's so good.

Kole: [01:04:10]The body now won't let you ignore it.

Luke Storey: [01:04:12]This is really good. And thank you for how you broke that down, too. Andhopefully, I can remember to get back to the sherpas because those experiencesare wild. But to this point-- and I don't know why it's been my experience. Imean, maybe because I was in recovery so long, just working on myself so much,but any time I've had a breakthrough in a psychedelic experience and I'vegotten the answer, or more so, even like a to-do list, kind of, that's how itcomes to me. It's like, okay, you're seeing some shit now. 

If I have the courageto lean into something, especially those things I don't want to lean into,sometimes I take a break and I'm like, okay, we're going to go there. And thenit's like diving into a deep pool and I'm just like, "Oh, we're fucking inhere." My ego might not like what we find and what I'm going to beinstructed to do afterward, because that's where the real-- 

Kole: [01:05:04]That's radical responsibility.

Luke Storey: [01:05:06]Yeah, but I'm thinking back to the last time I sat with Ayahuasca and I didn'thave post-integration help. If I would have needed, then someone like you orthe people you're training would have been, but I didn't really need it. I knowwhat the answers were that I got and there would be such a tremendous self offailure and guilt in me if I got those answers that were given to me by source,my higher self soul, medicine, whatever because usually for me, it's like,you're doing this, this, and this, go do it. 

And if I don't do it,it nags me. There's things that I need to do. And the last ceremony, oh, man,there were very clear instructions. And one of them was to have a conversationwith Alyson about something that was very shamy, and I didn't want to do it.And after the first night, we woke up and I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, Igot to do the thing." And we did it. And it was received with such loveand acceptance. It was perfect. We worked through it. 

Another one, and I'lljust share this for people listening, it's personal, but I don't care becausethere's probably someone listening that could use something like this. But Iwas observing how it's so difficult for me to be in total silence and how muchI distract myself, listening to podcasts, playing music, just being here in thehouse. It's just big and empty and echoey. 

I'm like, "Why doI always have to be doing something here and something?" Because Alyson isnot like that. She'll just chill. The house is quiet all day long. And I sawthat even all the healing I've done around my trauma that my whole life have beenrunning from this feeling or just running from a sense of not being safe.Anyway, long story short, I got to the core of it, and it was around sexualabuse that I endured as a kid.

And so that's nothingnew to me in those spaces to work with them. And I've gone down to the darkestdepths of that shit, felt it, forgiven it, all the things, but it was stilllingering there and affecting just how I operate to a degree and not indysfunctional ways, but just in that distraction. 

So anyway, thedirections I was given were that I was to take two small pieces of paper andto-- man, I thought this was going to be unemotional, but to write the names ofeach of the two pedophiles that had groomed and abused me when I was a kid, towrite them down on little pieces of paper. And then I had this box on ourkitchen counter, a little wooden box, and it said to put them in there and togo bury it in the woods.

I was like, "Wow,that's weird." And then the resistance was, which is hilarious, I likedthat little box. And I was like, "That's my box." I don't even useit. But it's kind of cool. I don't want to waste it. I mean, that's how thesubconscious is going, "No, no, don't look at that. Don't do it. Hang onto that." And I came home and I would have kicked myself in the ass sohard. Immediately I did the thing when I drove them down the road with ashovel, and I buried that fucking box.

Did that mean anything?I don't know. I hope so. Was I given that instruction for a reason? I hope so,probably. Did my life dramatically change after that? No. Do I like silencemore? Maybe a little more. But--

Kole: [01:08:28]Just that box size.

Luke Storey: [01:08:30]But I wish I get a new box. Maybe I already did. But it's that I was shownsomething very specific to do. I don't know why. I don't know from where itcame, but I had to do that. But if I didn't have the wherewithal to do that orwas too scary or lazy procrastinating to avoid and whatever, then I would needa coach after that experience. And they'd say, "Well, how did it go? Whathappened?' And I would say, "Well, I got this box thing and these piecesof paper, but what do you think?"

To have someone to holdme accountable to that if I couldn't do it myself would be really important.What you were saying I think that spurned that long rant-- and I apologize tothe listeners for talking too much, but it's because I get that feedbacksometimes it speaks to the actualization. It's like that's the end step of thatlittle thread that went down. And there were a bunch of other things actuallythat I also completed, which was great. But that one was a good example for mebecause it was so concrete.

Tah: [01:09:26]Well, thank you.

Luke Storey: [01:09:27]It was actionable.

Tah: [01:09:28]Thank you for sharing that, for being so vulnerable and for having youremotions. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you for being you. Thank you foreverything that you've endured, Luke. I really, really hold you in a tremendousamount of esteem for how you show up for your audience and for yourself and forAlyson. Thank you, family. I really, really appreciate you. And I just want totake a moment to acknowledge that. Thank you. I love you, man.

Kole: [01:09:59]And don't worry, everyone cries with us.

Luke Storey: [01:10:00]I wouldn't be the first time.

Tah: [01:10:03]Thank you.

Luke Storey: [01:10:04]So sometimes we do in these podcasts and I'm like, "Did you just saythat?" It's like that judgmental self. But I know there's one personlistening-- 

Tah: [01:10:13]That needs to hear that. 

Luke Storey: [01:10:15]That's going to go, "You can do that? You can talk about it?"

Kole: [01:10:16]That's the subtlety, though. Well, there's also that act that you said youdon't know if it really made a difference, that subtlety is what we see createsthe most transformation because that means you trust yourself. And that's thecore thing. That's the only hope I have for each person on this planet is tohave that level of trust to be like, "Well, I don't know why, but when Ilisten to myself and I look at the results of doing that, it's gotten me here.I trust it."

And so even though in thatmoment you said, I don't know if it really impacted that, people can get socaught up and psychedelics being the big transformation that they will actuallyskip the nuance that is the difference of switching into an optimized life outof survival mode. And as someone that collects data, and biohacking andmetrics, for us, it is the nuance that you find the most truth. When there'snot pain, if you don't do it, there would be discomfort. But in contrast toother things you've been through, that small act is as important as any bigtransformational experience. 

And for us, it's morethat people have diminished the importance of those subtle, nuanced momentsthat actually, for me, are the divine articulation of all of the other work.But in that moment you heard that voice that you said, "All right, this iswhat I need to do," was the proof that you are taking the divine teachingsand integrating them into the now. In that message, in that moment, you got toexplore that. That's integrating it. 

So it's like I stillintegrate journeys from years ago where something will come in. And so for us,that actually perfectly exhibits from a coaching perspective that sometimespeople go, "Well, it was just a small thing. I don't know if it really didanything." For us we're like, "No, that is the difference."

Tah: [01:12:22]It is. It's a huge difference. And this is where we invite people to detachthemselves from outcome. Your intention is not an outcome. It's somethingyou're looking to explore. And for you to have that situation where it's like,I don't know why I'm doing this, it doesn't make sense. But you went and youdid this situation and now it's here and you're broadcasting this to how manypeople and how many people are going to hear this. 

And even if it's thatone person that hears this story and saw you have this emotional situation orheard this come up for you, change their trajectory, that is you integratingwith your audience, that's integration. And so to have the realization thatthings are outside of what we would know-- these are plants, these are plantsand fungi and substances that come from the universe. And so to sit here andthink that you have jurisdiction over how things should be puts you in aposition that you're expecting outcome anytime there's a should you'reanticipating an outcome.

And so it's like thisdoesn't make sense. Good. Do it anyway. And so you did it anyway. And so nowthis is impacting something else and somebody else in a whole audience ofpeople.

Kole: [01:13:29]And that it's like when you look at a flight path crossing the country, onedegree, the nuance is a completely different city. That's if we leave LosAngeles and we're off one degree, if we thought we were going to New York, wecould end up in Atlanta from one degree. 

And so that for me iswhere the coaching models really come into play, because quite often,especially as someone that comes from the once an addict background as well, ifI would have understood the little things I was doing to improve my life, itwould have helped slow down and even stop a lot of the shame spirals because Ididn't have proof, because I was looking for enough quantifiable proof and Icouldn't find it. And the second I felt like I didn't have it, I'd spiral backdown. But those little nuance moments, the Condor approach is a journalingsystem and it's actually totally free. And you'll have the link in the shownotes, all of that stuff.

Luke Storey: [01:14:24]Yeah, speaking of which I forgot to mention it earlier, but it's going to belukestorey.com/integrate, lukestorey.com/integrate. So anything we talk abouthere, including links to your course and all the things are going to be inthere.

Kole: [01:14:36]Well, we offer so much for free. And so this journaling workbook, it's what Ideveloped to get out of my chronic medical conditions because the first 60% ofmy medical conditions was inflammation from diet, lifestyle, nutrition, whichwe could argue still from trauma. 

And then the other 40%,I got through psychedelics and tracking nuance because that little ache in myback that I thought, oh, it's because I'm getting older. No, it's because itwas the way I was carrying shame. My endometriosis was an internalization ofshame from assaults on my sexuality from 8 to 12 and my thoughts around theexperience from being raised Mormon. 

And so when I startedto look that the nuance is actually just as important because our body iscomprised of all these cues and what we teach in the Condor coachingcertification is body mapping, that there is no such thing as nuance. All ofthem are signals and cues. Your emotions point back to three points of ease.Every emotion is telling you if you're feeling safe, connected, andfulfilled. 

And if you'll askyourself in any emotion, where am I not feeling safe, connected, or fulfilled?You'll usually figure it out. And if you talk to Tah, he will figure it out.And so we found all of these ways to take these very nebulous components andturn them into systems because that is our purpose. That is the gift of hismedical background. My analytical mind working in a lot of strategy is that nowwe actually can lay it out. So someone before might have said, once an addict,always an addict can see the data proof in front of them that even if they saymy life sucks, if we get them from to a nine to a seven, that's huge. 

And most people's mindsare generalizing. So it either sucks or it doesn't suck. I'm in pain or I'm notin pain. I'm depressed, everything is or that binary. When you get the data infront of them and they can see like, "Oh man, I've actually made someprogress." that spark of hope is the difference. That little moment whenthey go, wow, no, because we have daily stress scores and sovereignty scores.

Stress score is howsomeone's daily stressors are. Sovereignty is basically can you be with youremotions and what are you making that mean? Between those two scores, forsomeone to see their scores get higher, even by one point is going, "Okay,I'm still on the right track." That's why when someone's on a weight lossjourney, you measure, take pictures, weight, and fat loss percentage becauseyou need more metrics because the scale alone isn't the truth of the wholestory.

The body fat percentageisn't all of it because their clothes might fit smaller because of theirmuscular changes, but in psychedelic space and the Condor approach, there wereno metrics without trying to define experiences. That's not what we're doing.We're saying when you wake up every single morning, are you getting sleep morethan yesterday? Less about the same. What do you want to know, do, be orunderstand today?

And then alsocelebrating yourself and it infuses a gratitude practice. And then there's abody mapping, marking little xes on the body because you'll be like, "Man,every Sunday before I have to go to work, I'm getting my old shoulderinjury." Is it your old shoulder injury or are there patterns that areshowing up around the same people, the same dynamics, the same circumstances? 

And when we started todo that and look at the literal function of the body part being impacted alongwith what we call the chakra development, what ages your chakras develop, yourbody starts to make perfect sense. And then you get a deeper appreciation forwhen you're getting the cues because now it becomes your best friend. Its onlygoal initially is to keep you alive. Once you mend that relationship, it willoptimize and drive you to any outcome you want. 

Now, Tah and I will bewalking down the street, and I'll be like, "Hmm, I want to go thatway." He doesn't ask why. And then we'll run into one person. And in thatmoment was like, "Wow, I was just thinking about you" because now ourbody is fueled for optimization and purpose and contribution. And so that'swhere it guides us instead of only away from pain. 

That is theexpansiveness that's possible after the healing journey. And that's where wewanted to dedicate ourselves. There's a lot of beautiful facilitators outthere. What we need is more skilled integration coaches to motivate people, putthe rubber to the road after from a place of acceptance, radicalself-responsibility, teaching people how to communicate, how to build theiremotional intelligence, and expand the real estate of what they can hold soit's not or I'm not depressed or happy. I can be in a very depressed statebecause I lost something very important while still be in utter joy for thebeautiful things I still have. It's that we keep being forced to choose andwe're here to show people how to expand their experience to hold everything.

Luke Storey: [01:19:55]He loves you.

Tah: [01:19:57]Oh, my God. 

Kole: [01:20:00]She does. Not left notes all over the house.

Luke Storey: [01:20:02]I do, too.

Tah: [01:20:03]Oh, my God.

Luke Storey: [01:20:03]I love being in your field. Yes, it's beautiful.

Tah: [01:20:07]You're so amazing. All this time and it just keeps escalating, and just you'rejust so amazing.

Kole: [01:20:17]I love you. Team, shoot me for the win still. When we got together, everyonewas just, the newness wears off. We're, like, "Mh-hmm, 10 years latersucker."

Luke Storey: [01:20:26]I feel that, too. And it just gets better and better.

Kole: [01:20:29]That is the life we live in, Luke. If we just go ahead and accept some stuffsucks and some stuff is awesome, but everyone's trying to cut the highs and thelows, that's what all these antidepressants are for. And when we can actuallyallow the suck fully without living in it, but most people, the work wheretheir opportunity is is not to go deeper into their shadow trauma workactually, it's allowing the beauty and gifts in their life to actually receivethose things. 

When I first got intothis, my shadow work was laughter and play and having fun. I had beaten myselfto death on suffering for transformation. And the biggest turnaround for thatwas in an Ayahuasca ceremony. She said, "If you keep digging in the dirt,you'll find it. If you want to create, you have to look to the stars." 

And it was realizing itwas time for me to get over my own self and my traumas and dramas and recognizelike, hey, it's time now. Put your boots on. There's a lot of people out there,a lot worse off than you that need your help. And that's our call is anyonehearing the call right now is concerned about legality, is concerned about theimpact, because the reality is just because you set up a church does not giveyou legal protection. It gives you a defensible case. 

And if we onlymedicalize, then we create more criminals. Because medicalization andlegalization creates regulation. Regulation creates criminals who don't haveaccess to the models that already exist, that aren't going to serve the peoplethey need to serve.

Tah: [01:22:06]Which is a repetition of the old system.

Kole: [01:22:07]It is the same thing. And the people that are going to take the hit are goingto be the therapists. If you look at any ad for a company offering jobs in thepsychedelic space-- we'll say in Ketamine Therapy for now because that's what'slegal, they are selling that you'll get to transform more lives. But they'repaying poverty. 

And so we're going tocreate patients out of the heart-centered people that want to make the biggestdifference and feed on their desire to help which is why we said, you knowwhat? We're going to step out of the role of facilitator to be completelylegally sound because we don't want to see therapists, doctors, and coachesbecome patients because their purpose becomes a sacrificial thing, that it'sthem or the people that they love. 

And we're here with amodel to say, you can help anyone at any price point. You get to decide it. Youcan be resilient with it. You can meet people where they are. You don't have tojust double your rates. Just people haven't seen it done the way that we do,and that's what we want to share.

Luke Storey: [01:23:14]You guys have a course coming up here which will open shortly after we havefigured out the dates. By the time this podcast gets released, you'll haveenrollment for your course and you guys are doing what? Like a five-day comingup in January?

Kole: [01:23:26]In February.

Tah: [01:23:27]February.

Luke Storey: [01:23:28]Okay.

Tah: [01:23:28]7th to the 11th, 2023.

Luke Storey: [01:23:30]In Austin?

Kole: [01:23:31]In Austin.

Luke Storey: [01:23:32]Is this what my friend David did earlier in September?

Tah: [01:23:37]He did it in June.

Kole: [01:23:38]He did June.

Luke Storey: [01:23:38]Oh, June. Okay. Yeah, he was texting me, "Oh, man, this is amazing."He was pumped. Still is. Still is. It made a huge impact on him because somepeople listening, probably seeing the value that he has to offer and just nothaving a framework for it.

Kole: [01:23:54]It's a structure. And when people have a structure and we come with a skeletonand we help people with their unique gifts. They might be a doctor. They mightbe a chiropractor. They might have other tools they can integrate into anoffer. But we explain what does that have to do with this psychedelic lens ofunderstanding the neurological and physiological impact of someone doing thatwork. That includes cannabis work, and that's legal in lots of placesnow. 

And so the models thatwe teach have to do with transformational experiences. Going to Tony Robbins isa transformational experience if people knew how to integrate it after, itwould change the outcome. Short-term results is nice. Long-term results isoptimization. You can enhance something without optimizing it. You can goenhance your state of joy, but you're not going to optimize joy until youcreate the strategies that support the joy. So that it's not based on willpoweralone.

Tah: [01:24:47]Optimization is enhancement on autopilot. You're constantly optimized, you'reconstantly enhanced all the time, and so it becomes your new mainstay. That'swhat we're looking to get people into that space. And the integration processthat we have is here and it's functional for all transformational circumstances.David Keller, shout out to David Keller.

Luke Storey: [01:25:09]He's going to be hearing this for sure.

Tah: [01:25:10]He works with Kakao.

Kole: [01:25:13]Beautiful ceremonies.

Tah: [01:25:13]Beautiful ceremonies with Kakao, and to have an integrated process for peoplein Kakao, the person that can that you're working with, the owner of thatcompany, I spoke to him about integrate. He wants to utilize this to helppeople integrate Kava.

Luke Storey: [01:25:28]Oh cool. Shout out to Cameron-- 

Tah: [01:25:31]Cameron from Tukeva.

Luke Storey: [01:25:32]From Tukeva. Yeah.

Tah: [01:25:32]From Tukeva. What's up Cameron? He's an amazing human being and his story isamazing. So if you get an opportunity to check him out--

Luke Storey: [01:25:38]He's been on the show a couple of time.

Tah: [01:25:40]So he's looking at helping people to integrate their experiences around Kavabecause people have these expansive experiences and they're like, what do I dowith this? We're at a really right place with psychedelics coming into a newspace. It's on the stock market now. People are leaning into it, people aremicrodosing. And the legalization thing is here, whether people like it ornot. 

And so we have about330 million people in the United States of America, and we have roughly betweenfunctional about 120,000 to 200,000 therapists in this country. The amount ofpeople that are leaning into using psychedelics, we're going to need a lot moretherapists than we have, and we're going to need a lot more therapists. And soto train a therapist takes somewhere between three and five years, depending onhow they study, from a social worker to a psychotherapist. And so it's got--

Kole: [01:26:33]It is wait times for--

Tah: [01:26:35]And plus, you don't know who's going to do what. And so to have coaches who canguide people back into themselves is tremendously important. And to have anintegration model that's not just for psychedelics, it's for coaching, it's forcocoa, it's for therapeutic circumstances of any sort, to have a model likethis that we can get into the industries worldwide to help people findthemselves in themselves is tremendously important.

Kole: [01:27:02]And they can support their own communities versus the top-down support. That'sthe trap.

Tah: [01:27:06]Yeah. And we're using the lens of psychedelic integration right now. And thisis an integrative process that we have people that are Reiki therapists, wehave psycho therapist--

Kole: [01:27:15]Bodyworkers.

Tah: [01:27:16]Bodyworkers that come to our training and they take this and they use an intakeprocess with their people so that they actually start to get to know theirclients. So when stuff comes up, how many times have you gone for bodywork? Youstart crying. So, oh my gosh, what do I do with this? This trauma comes up. Howdo you integrate that? To have a model where you're not just a massagetherapist, but you also have a coaching situation where you can do a group withall of your clients twice a week, where you help them integrate how their bodystuff comes into play.

Kole: [01:27:44]What's unique in what we're doing is we're teaching people how to coach andwe're helping them build their business that supports what they want to do andwhat their integrity looks like. So one person, for example, does basicallyvirtual work where someone might live on the other side of the world that can'tget access to a facilitator. She doesn't facilitate them, but she helps educatethem and do a walk-through with a camera to set the space and things to bemindful of in sharp corners and move that out of the way. And then she educatesa trip sitter in the space for them.

Luke Storey: [01:28:21]Wow.

Kole: [01:28:21]Because that's all that is available. 

Luke Storey: [01:28:22]The playlist together. The playlist is important.

Kole: [01:28:26]Playlist. Those kinds of things, we give the power back to each individualbecause as long as we rely on daddy government or whoever to come in and saveus, we're in trouble because with how quickly this is getting mainstream andall the documentaries and my mom called me about the Today show, she's like,"Did you see The Today show today?"

I said, I assure you Idid not. And wonderful. It's becoming so mainstream that it's growing muchfaster than any system could possibly support. And the thing for us is we'relike, right, and we can get you to be a master psychedelic-informed coach intwo years so that once it legalizes where you are, it's turnkey. Facilitatingis the easiest part when you understand how to hold space and be a solid coach becausein that we have something we call a state assessment and you run an SOS whensomeone starts to get activated.

First step of an SOS,which is state or strategy, you stop. We call it, you stop and take a pee pee.Pause and physical scan. Take a breath with someone, just like these types oflittle tools. And then we'll say, "All right, talk." When you'recoaching someone, what state are they in? S being the situation, T being theirthought about the situation, A the actions as a result of the thought about thesituation. Then we have another T which we call the triangle, which is thevictim villain Victor. The other E is the emotion. When you get the evidence ofone circumstance, then you can see what strategies they're using, where theycan see. It's not about you, you're just filling in the model over here so thatthey can see it on paper. 

From there we canassess their strategies. This is where someone can take radical responsibilityfor what they want to do with it. I don't need you to change it. And so ourcombination of teaching someone how to be a coach that isn't projecting theirstuff all over on someone, how to hold very clear space, and then how to taketheir unique gifts, not what some certification is telling you you have to doas a psychedelic psychotherapist because there's so much to unpack. 

But just as one exampleof how complex this is going to be and why the concern is for therapists is inplaces like Oregon where it's legalized, they have to have multiple locationsfor the one business, the place where the journey happens, the place of theintegration coaching. So you're going to have multiple expenses for one offer.When this is first rolling out, it's going to be for PTSD, depression, anxiety,which means you have to be sick enough to qualify for care. 

And then we alreadyknow that people with those severe complexes aren't usually working. So thenthey're going to need government assistance or the VA. And so who has to dothat? The licensed therapists are the ones that have to chase the insurancecompanies. We're going to have coding issues with insurance. They're alreadynot going to be making enough money. So again, we're going to force one sect ofpeople who want to be the helpers to be the oppressed because of the system. 

And so in this, we'resaying we're going to help you create a model that's functional for you. If youlove one-to-one, cool. If you want to run monthly integration circles with yourcommunity and charge 20 bucks a person, great. Let's create that for you. Butin a way where the results are quantifiable in a way that actually supportssovereignty and for a community to build and still be in their own processes,but together.

Tah: [01:32:04]All the while you creating a sustainable income so that you are not strugglingyourself and putting yourself into a traumatic circumstance.

Luke Storey: [01:32:13]Yeah, that's a bona fide archetype. The Broke Healer, The Broke SpiritualTeacher--

Kole: [01:32:19]The Broke Musician, I did that one too.

Tah: [01:32:22]Me too. I've traveled around the world with it.

Luke Storey: [01:32:27]Yeah, but I think an important thing here that I'm getting is the foundation ofa grassroots approach to this. Because as you're talking,
Kole, I'm just like, "Oh, man, this shit is way more complex." I'mjust like, "Yeah, make it all legal, Kole, as everyone's going to gethealed." It's like, "Oh, this is nuance." 

But something thatcomes to mind is with this grassroots approach, from the bottom up, coachesbeing self-empowered as Tah said, being able to support themselves, create anethical business, a win-win business out of this is the accessibility becausethat's the thing I think about, oh, sure, I can fly to Costa Rica and spendfive grand on an Ayahuasca retreat. 

Well, what about theperson who makes 25 grand a year? That's not feasible. And so if they're like,"Oh, God, I'm really feeling a call to work with medicine," then theywould run a higher risk of maybe doing it a little more clumsily or gettingsomeone who's really not qualified to help them integrate or to hold space oractually serve the medicine or whatever.

Kole: [01:33:29]Or it's too much pressure on one experience because they might have saved everycent or taking their kid's college fund thinking this is the only chance Ihave. So maybe if I take this thousand dollars and go to South America, then goto the bootleg shaman I found in Iquitos or something, it's a thing. There'slike red light district vibes.
But that's the thing. And we're also seeing a lot more people that are comingforward in claiming their indigenous heritage without the training because theysee the financial gain. 

So there's lots ofthings happening on so many levels that that's why for us educating once weilluminate those that people go, "Oh, okay, we have more conversations tohave and that this is where the changes start." Because just by me beingable to say to someone, "Look, I know you want to go to Peru. This is theonly thousand dollars that you have. And that's a lot of pressure to put onyourself and the facilitator that basically if you don't get thistransformation, you're offing yourself."

And that doesn't meansomeone still doesn't go. But by us being able to have a more real conversationfrom a coaching perspective, then someone may choose to do it differently. Orwe may say how we can do more work to prepare in breathwork in embodimentpractices to hopefully impact the outcome of their experience. 

But people are gettingmore desperate and it's still going to be years before I would say legal accessfor all. And so the first step from my lens is decriminalization so people cangrow their own, share their own in that way, and hold space in their owncommunity. Because not everyone can fly to work with elders. Not everyone hasaccess to elders. And yet they're hurting in the streets of Philly, they'rehurting in the streets of LA. And if there's one person there that has hadexposure to be able to hold space for them that actually knows their lived experience,that's life changing.

Luke Storey: [01:35:41]What if I told you you could drink one drink that not only supplies thenutrients of 13 superfoods, but also boost blood flow, physical and mentalenergy and stamina while still tasting like a healthy Kool-Aid-type fruitdrink? 

Well, you can. And ofcourse, I'm talking about Organifi Red Juice. These guys make a drink powderthat contains potent adaptogens like rhodiola, ginseng, and reishi mushrooms,antioxidant-rich berries, organic beet juice, and even a clinical dose ofcordyceps. 

But for me, perhaps thebest thing about it is that it tastes delicious in just plain water. So there'sno need for a blender. I love the red juice as a pre-workout or sometimes as ablood flow stack with other supplements, nootropics, and even-- don't tellanyone-- micro doses to maximize the effects of whatever I mix it with. 

So this is my afternoonpick-me-up when I want to skip caffeine or other stimulants. And theconvenience of their on-the-move canister and go packs make this super easy fortravel as well. And as you probably know, if you've been listening to thisshow, I've been on the Organifi train for years as they've been a brand I cantrust to always be organic, non-GMO, certified, gluten-free, and perhaps mostimportantly, certified glyphosate residue free. Heads up on that. That'ssomething you want to look for. But mainly I just dig them because their stuffworks and I don't like wasting time and money on bogus health products. 

So check out theOrganifi Red Juice and taste and feel it for yourself. Here's what you do. Goto organifi.com and use the code lifestylist for 15% off any item in the store.That's Organifi with an I. And again, the code is lifestylist. 

That brings to mindprobably the million-dollar question of this conversation for people who aremore on the participant side of things or the curious participants. And it is aquestion I get often, especially in direct messages on Instagram like, "Iknow I probably shouldn't ask you this here, but where I live in my community,these experiences do not exist. How do I find someone to help me in that?"And so I'll direct them to the third Paul Austin's Third Wave website. There'sa directory of retreat centers out of the country and legal ways to have theseexperiences. And I'm kind of stuck there. I'm like, I don't try that website. Idon't know. I'm not going to introduce someone into something that could beillegal, essentially.

Kole: [01:38:05]Totally.

Luke Storey: [01:38:05]Especially on a social media platform. So for someone--

Kole: [01:38:08]Those screenshot, it was Luke Storey.

Luke Storey: [01:38:09]Yeah. No. Or people try to send me mushrooms all the time and I'm like,"They're illegal." I know we kind of all forget that, but I remembermore being in a state like Texas than I did California, but say someone'slisting and they're like, "Cool, I would like to have one of theseintegration coaches or a psychedelic-informed therapist or whatever itis," but I actually just want to go have this experience and it's not inmy social circle. 

I don't hang aroundwith burners and whatever. It's just outside of their repertoire because a lotof these experiences can be had in an inexpensive way. It's not the access isnecessarily total financial. I mean, you can grow mushrooms in your closetenough to send you to the fucking moon. That's not it. And you can find someoneat any concert to probably sell them to you or whatever.

Kole: [01:38:56]And this is part of it, Luke, is that people have to first start openingdialogue in their community because it's different now than it was two yearsago. And so my invitation to anyone is actually to start talking about it andjust asking questions and start to get the pulse of your community becausethere's facilitators everywhere. Every time someone thinks there's not someonein their city, it's because that person doesn't feel safe to talk aboutit. 

And so it takesbuilding rapport. It takes maybe sharing some stories about new research onyour page. You'll start to find it. But if you don't come out of the foxhole,they are not coming out of the foxhole because they're the ones that have thebigger legal concern. And so it's being mindful in how you seek out support.Don't send people messages on Instagram and say like, "Where do I getmushrooms?" You're immediately a red flag that you don't know what you'redoing, which makes you a liability.

And so look at yourlocal psychedelic society chapter. There's those all over the country. Maybereach out to them about starting one. Hey, could we get some speakers here?When you start to gather community, you'll find what you need. But be mindfulagain in that outcome-driven approach that I have to do that because that'swhen people tend to settle for an environment that's not very safe for them.

Tah: [01:40:12]There's something I call the expansion equation, and it's curiosity pluscourage equals expansion. And to be curious about psychedelics is fine. It'swonderful. I'm curious about this, but if you don't have the courage to go talkabout it, you may not expand. 

And so to have thecourage to go out and actually ask about this stuff, ask the people-- most ofthe people that I know are scared to talk to other people because they'reafraid they're going to be stigmatized and the person that they'll be talkingabout is thinking the same thing.

And so do you have thecourage to open the conversation? Hey, I hear about psychedelics and I'm scaredthat it's a drug thing. I'm going to be addicted. Can we have a conversationabout it? And this is where it starts. It starts with having a curiousconversation with courage and moving beyond the stigmas of like I was sayingearlier, the stigma is in the indoctrination space that causes people to beafraid. It's not illegal to discuss things. I wouldn't--

Luke Storey: [01:41:12]Depending on what you discuss.

Tah: [01:41:13]Well, I mean, if you're--

Luke Storey: [01:41:15]Asked to see my shadow banning on Instagram and I discuss the lines in the sky.

Tah: [01:41:20]Right. What I'm talking about person to person. It's not illegal to discussperson to person. Talk to your friends about this stuff.

Kole: [01:41:27]Ask if they saw the new documentary.

Tah: [01:41:28]Yeah. I just ask these things and start having conversations about it. Thingswill come to the surface.

Luke Storey: [01:41:34]All right. Excellent. That's good information. I'm going to make sure I don'tforget anything here because there's a lot. Well, on that note, if someonestarts to have these conversations and comes out of the psychedelic curiouscloset, and so they find an ad hoc facilitator or shaman or whatever it is,from the participant perspective, what are some red flags? If they'reinterviewing someone or learning more about someone that's serving medicine,what do they want to look out for to maybe avoid a situation that's harmful,deleterious in any way?

Tah: [01:42:11]The first thing is the body. If your body says no, the answer is no. Check in.Be able to see if your body is like, oh no. If your body's like, run, run.That's the number one thing I would invite a person to. Number two is askingquestions, "How will you keep me safe? What is your policy on safety? Willthere be anybody else around?"

Kole: [01:42:38]How many people?

Tah: [01:42:38]How many people will be there?

Luke Storey: [01:42:40]That's always my question. How many people and who's on the playlist?

Tah: [01:42:44]Where will this take place? All of these things. What kind of substance willyou be working with? What is your experience with this stuff? There's--

Kole: [01:42:53]Will everyone be taking the same thing? Is there going to be more than onething?

Luke Storey: [01:42:59]Mm-hmm. That's good.

Tah: [01:42:59]Really important space, because different substances have different energeticspaces. And if a person is not equipped to help people navigate those spaces,things can get chaotic really quick. And that can support a person to feeloutside of safety.

Kole: [01:43:12]That's when we start to see what we would describe as a messy container. Whenthere's a lot of substances in one container, it's like openinginterdimensional doors on this planet and planetary universal other dimensionaldoors. And we see quite often people get very dysregulated and have weirdsymptoms in their body when they were in a container with a lot of differentsubstances on different timelines or like different timings where it's actuallythere are so many energetic frequencies happening and they don't all getclosed. 

And so my biggestthings is one is the facilitator going to be taking to and is there anyone thatis not taking anything. Because I want someone there that's completely soberbecause that's what makes me feel safe.

The other thing that'sreally important for me is the numbers. If there's a lot of people there, I'mnot interested because I spend more time trying to not feel other people'sstuff or not take it on. And I've just learned what if I just don't do thatanymore instead of working so hard.

The other thing that isreally important for me is what's the support look like after. I want to know,are we doing a closing circle? If I need anything, can I call you? Because somepeople will say, "Well, we'll do a closing circle." That's it.Doesn't mean I won't work with them in the jungle. They don't do integrationafter. That's not a thing for their tradition, at least with like the queen.But I want to know that so that I can then inform with maybe someone else,"I'm going, can we keep an eye on each other this week and check in?"things like that.

So it's how you feelabout the answers. It's not about that there's right or wrong answers. It'sthat ask the questions you would want to know. What do I need to bring? What'sthe sleeping arrangements? What do you recommend? What can I anticipate?

Luke Storey: [01:44:53]Sleep arrangement is huge.

Kole: [01:44:55]It is. It is.

Tah: [01:44:56]Also--

Luke Storey: [01:44:57]Not that you're typically going to sleep, but when that time comes--

Kole: [01:45:00]If you want space, it's important.

Tah: [01:45:03]What's your policy on touch? Really, really important. What's your policy ontouch when a person is altered and then touch, they can bring stuff up. Ifthere are multiple people, is there a code of conduct? Do you have everybodyread a code of conduct and sign it? This includes radical consent. Do you needconsent to look at another person? This stuff can bring things up in people.And so what is your code of conduct? Will there be touch situations? Are peopleallowed to have sex in your container? And this is something that is really,really important.

Kole: [01:45:35]Oh, man. When that happens, it makes the whole container go--

Tah: [01:45:38]The whole container gets wonky and people will go into backrooms and do stuffin certain people's containers.

Kole: [01:45:43]We all feel it. I'll feel like all of a sudden matrix shift.

Tah: [01:45:46]Yeah. So sex in and of itself is beautiful. It's wonderful. It is an alteredstate. When people get into sexual spaces, the amount of hormones that aremoving through people's bodies creates a different energetic pattern and thatinteracts with psychedelics in a different way. And so what's your policy onthat? 

These are questions toask your facilitator and be bold about asking your facilitator. If yourfacilitator gets sketchy and is afraid to ask or won't answer these questions,don't worry about it. It's my container that for me is a red flag.

Kole: [01:46:17]Yeah, it's more how they handle the questions because if I have someone that'snot willing to answer my questions when we have a neutral energy, then if Ireally need you, what's going to happen? Or if you've got allergies, is there acat there? Is there a dog there? Those are not fun things when you show up tofind out. 

So make a list of whatwould an ideal environment for you look like. You don't have to do it. It'slike going to look for a house. You can say, "Well, I want the master tuband this and the pool that I can let go with some of these things too."But the clearer you are in what you could imagine would be a safe space for youto lie down, to have space alone, do you have to stay in the room, can help youbring tools and things to keep yourself comfortable.

Luke Storey: [01:47:03]Awesome.

Tah: [01:47:03]Also, one other thing I would ask is what is the level of experience of thepeople that are going to be in this event?

Luke Storey: [01:47:09]Oh, yeah.

Tah: [01:47:10]If you go to an event where everybody's a newbie, you're going to havedifferent types of energy than a kind of mixed environment or an environmentwhere people are experienced. So that's a very important question to ask. Ifind that people who are new to psychedelic work have safer experiences whenthey go to something that has people who have been experienced in this space.

Kole: [01:47:31]Everyone knows how to hold their own energy.

Tah: [01:47:33]Especially if there's more than eight people.

Luke Storey: [01:47:37]Yeah, very good. Very good. That's all really good stuff. I hope people arelistening. If you follow half of what you both just offered, you probably havea positive outcome for the right person at the right time.

Tah: [01:47:48]And we can also include at Finding Your Facilitator.

Kole: [01:47:51]Yeah, I'll put a whole little bundle for your page because we actually have adocument called Finding Your Facilitator.

Luke Storey: [01:47:57]Oh, cool.

Kole: [01:47:57]We have lots of free stuff because this is a part of what we've created. Ourtrips and retreats are not cost-efficient for most people until they see thatwhat we create, how many families are impacted, where that money goes, and thatallows us to do a lot of free stuff because--

Luke Storey: [01:48:17]I mean, just the workbook, the Condo approach workbook, I mean, when you printit out, you get--

Kole: [01:48:21]345 pages or something.

Luke Storey: [01:48:24]Bible yeah.

Tah: [01:48:24]And it's translated into Portuguese, Spanish, French, and German.

Luke Storey: [01:48:29]Oh, what?

Kole: [01:48:30]Yeah. It has to be formatted still. So that's our next step. But our goal isthat these tools, if everyone at least had this in the community where theycould create a safe space to explore themself or to hold space for someoneelse, and because like I said, sometimes the best person for the job is theperson that's there because there is no one else is coming.

Luke Storey: [01:48:51]Well, that's an important thing that you mentioned earlier, and I don't wantpeople to mistake this as just a bride license for anyone who has one journeyas like, I'm going to facilitate now, but there really is someone for everyonetoo. And I think you talked about this earlier and it made me think of my earlydays in addiction recovery. I felt like I had zero to offer anyone at all. Butlet's say I made it through rehab that first 28 days. If I'm on day 27 and thisdude's on day two, I'm like, fucking--

Kole: [01:49:25]You're a master.

Luke Storey: [01:49:27]I'm basically an enlightened master because I've made it those many days markedoff my calendar without putting something in my body. So I do believe in that.But still without the framework and the coaching kind of element that you guysare talking about, that's the missing link.

Kole: [01:49:43]Well, and that's the radical self honesty. And that's why for us, we said ourgreatest gift we could give is for people to get clear in what they know andwhat they don't. Because when you see it clearly in front of you, because I'vehad times that there were people, I said because of certain conditions Iwouldn't work with, then they came to me in just a certain way that I was like,"They trust themself."

And I had an Ayahuascacircle with one of our-- she's a Peru, Mali to me, that one of the gentlementhat was going to participate in our circle with her, they initially said nobecause the medications that he's on and he and I spoke about it and he said Itrust where I am. I know my body, I trust my guides, and his medication hecouldn't come off of for different reasons. And I felt totally confident in mybody. I wasn't facilitating. But I'm educating and we're in discussion. And wesat with her and she felt into him and she said, okay, so there's alsoguidelines and there's rules. 

And so until you getclear in the differences between guidelines and rules, what things you don'tknow, so if you get into a vehicle, you don't know how to drive, if you'venever driven a stick, you might make it a little ways until you completely blowout the clutch or something. And so it's just by having some foundationalthings, we can at least get people clear in how they can serve now, when torefer out and when to recognize something is over your head.

Luke Storey: [01:51:16]And that's like you're starting with Kakao. There's a kind of an entry pointof--

Kole: [01:51:20]For cannabis.

Luke Storey: [01:51:22]Or something. I mean, tea ceremonies. There are many different ways ofdifferent levels of altering your state in some subtle ways and some dramaticways.

Kole: [01:51:31]Breathwork.

Tah: [01:51:32]Shrubbery. There's all kinds of things. 

Luke Storey: [01:51:35]I'm thinking like tea ceremony taboo, that's the spectrum.

Tah: [01:51:39]And it's one teach it twice a student. And it's like mastery, it's an ongoingevolutionary process. It's not a static condition. And to be able to move intothat space, you have to start somewhere. You have to start as an apprentice oran experiential person. And once you move into that space, you developthings. 

And I think that theCondo approach provides an amazing space for people to get into that space ofpracticing becoming mastered in one particular region and then expanding thatinto something else and to continue on the expansion. And that's foreverything.

Kole: [01:52:14]Yeah, to prove their own process because lots of people have tools. But if youreally sit down, do they know if their tools will work for other people? Plugit into our process and find out.

Luke Storey: [01:52:24]All right. That brings to mind, as we're discussing access and this becomingmore mainstream. You have people that are of the belief that this belongs tothe indigenous peoples of the world. And any alteration of those rituals thathave been tested over time and developed over, God knows how long, if you'redeviating from that model or not even the model, but if you're not going to sitwith someone in Brazil or Peru that's 80 years old and has been doing thistheir whole life, that you're not doing it right, you're not going to get whatyou need.

So I guess the questionis and maybe you've already answered it throughout this whole conversation, nowthey think about it, but it's how do we innovate and move forward with this andalso honor the traditions and the people from whom these traditions emerged?It's kind of that cultural appropriation sort of thing. Well, you're some whitegirl. You can't serve Ayahuasca that kind of stuff. How do we--

Luke Storey: [01:53:27]Totally. I've faced it as a white woman. What I did as I really sat and said,what questions would I ask myself in this role? And I started to explore all ofthem. And the thing that we've really come to find and that it was validated bymany of our teachers in South America, one of them said to us, he said,"Tradition is a beautiful thing that we must honor. Tradition as aprison."

And as we started toexplore that actual meaning over the last five or six years, one thing becameabundantly clear. The more immersed I came not with the experience of ceremony,but the cultures the ceremonies come from I started to realize that traditionaccording to who and at what time, starting in what year? 

Because Ayahuasca initself, what people are adhering to is traditional now was not tradition before1976. And certain tradition happening down in the jungles in the Amazon rightnow, the indigenous women are not being allowed to be servers of Ayahuasca, butthey used to be able to.

But now that therebecame a patriarchal paradigm shift within the last 100 years. So they'reworking to reclaim their own medicine as medicine women, which is why the workof Marley Tommy is so important. She is the only recognized woman Pi as beinglike that shaman facilitator. And so the first thing I ask people is they say,"Well, which part of the tradition and what year are you talking about?Which peoples, what tribe according to who?"

Because the context oftradition evolves and if we all go to the jungle, we destroy the jungle. Allthe retreat centers being built there, many don't even have water filtration.The jungle is not designed for cities in places like Iquitos or creating citiesin the jungle, so it's not functional for us to all do it that way.

Where I think we havethe opportunity is to have conversations on what we choose to do is financialcontribution. Because for, say, in Brazil, some of those communities want toget out of the jungle because they want to actually go create a retreat center towelcome people. And they can't do it on a two-day boat ride in the ways thatthey want to. Now they are evolving. One of the boys who came from the junglehere for the first time, he had pizza. He wants pizza now. He can't get pizzain the jungle. 

At what point do wehave the right to deny people's evolution too of their indigenous practices? SoI think that the next conversation truly is understanding sustainability.Ayahuasca grows very slowly as far as the vine. So for me it's talking moreabout psilocybin and what tumor very fast growing. They can survive in a lot ofenvironments. 

And looking at the costagain, if we remove all judgment and we bring in the elders to help understandand then we are financially contributing. For us, we contributed more in thelast year to indigenous communities than most corporations have. But that'sbecause we built it into our model because that is how we help support ourteachers. 

But the thing is, theydon't want free give-outs. And when COVID happened, when everyone else wasworried about toilet paper, we reached out to the families down in Peru thatare our sole family there and said, what do you need? They didn't want freemoney because they want to be valued. They sent us boxes of textiles that we sold.They gave me a price. I said, "Great, we'll double it because this isunique for people to get." And they got all of the money. 

So when we start toactually integrate what we believe, then each person takes responsibility. Whoare your teachers? What groups are important to you? How about you commit inyour business model, how you contribute, in what ways? And that starts from theground up. Not when you have enough, because no one ever seems to.

Luke Storey: [01:57:26]Yeah, I've noticed that one.

Kole: [01:57:28]I'm going to contribute.

Luke Storey: [01:57:29]I've noticed that within myself.

Kole: [01:57:31]No, we give first. We've given amounts that scared the shit out of us becausewe didn't even have enough ticket sales for the retreat yet. But for us, it wastrusting that when we give because we know, we give because we trust. And sofor us, the contribution is the good faith. It's the giving gratitude first,not the backwash of what's left.

Tah: [01:57:53]Listen, when a lot of the traditions on our planet were created, were founded,there was a lot less people on this planet. And so the traditions were designedaround smaller groups of people that had different methods of communication anddid not have the Internet and technology. And so now that we have all of thistechnology, we have different financial systems, we have a changing foodsupply, we have all of this different stuff, the traditions that were createdto support societies in the way they were are not functional right now. 

And so to honor thesethings, I understand, and to have these things transmute into something newthat can honor the technology that we have is tremendously important as weevolve. We are currently at almost 8 billion people on this planet. In the next20 years, we're slated to have another 400 million human beings on this planet.That's more than another United States of America. 

And in 40 years fromthat, we're supposed to have another billion people on this planet. That's whatwe're slated for. And if we keep doing things based on old models, we're goingto have a disrupted planet. And so we've got to change the way we do thingstraditionally, not just as agriculture is concerned, as far as morality, as faras the way we use our water and the way we treat one another is tremendouslyimportant right now. 

And so if we areconsistently looking at traditions and how we've enslaved people of differentethnicities, we've enslaved women, we've done all of these things, child labor,all of these things, if we continue to do these things that are traditional,we're headed down a slippery slope.

Kole: [01:59:36]And people will talk about deforestation in the jungle, but then I'm sittingdown having conversations with women in the jungle that are saying, every timewe make money, the men from other tribes come and take it because they feelentitled to it. And so for them, they're like, "Yeah, we need help withthe jungle. But can you please first make it where we're not getting castout?" Where 70 women were recently cast out of a village in the junglebecause they wanted to practice the ancestral traditions of the spiritualcomponents. 

And the men in thevillage said no. So 70 women were cast out in the middle of the jungle alonewith four other men to basically rebuild a new society for themselves, a newtribe for themselves. So there's so many other things to talk about that it'slike, "Well, we need to save the jungle." They're like, "Yeah, Ihear you. That is important. But that's what gets commercialized too."When we have Kajal, woman to woman, can we talk? When the men are busy. 

And so all of this tosay that this is why we believe it doesn't mean we can't have the medicalisedmodels. I actually believe that the chemical teachers is what we call them, soMDMA or psilocybin in chemical form, I think we need all of it because of theneed. And there's going to be some people that will only feel safe sitting in aclinic with a doctor or maybe they're on certain medications. They need to havethat I. What I refuse to see happen is that people don't know psilocybin comesfrom mushrooms that they could grow. 

Just like farming, somepeople still buy McDonald's, some people buy grass-fed finished meat. For me,that's what I'm going to see in psychedelics. Some people are going to want theorganic that they raised in their own garden that they loved, that they prayedon, that they sing to. And other people are going to want a clinical setting.And from a sustainability perspective, we actually would benefit from somelaboratory aspects so that it's not all put on the pressure of, say, the jungleor growing a vine.

Luke Storey: [02:01:35]Our beloved Sonoran Toads.

Kole: [02:01:38]They're facing extinction as it is with the trajectories right now.

Luke Storey: [02:01:41]And that's one thing whenever I talk about that I'm telling people they shouldgo do it, I'm just honestly sharing my experience, but I'm like, "Oh,maybe we should start talking about it."

Kole: [02:01:50]Well, you have chemicals. You have chemicals synthetic. 

Luke Storey: [02:01:54]Chemical synthetics. 5-MeO-DMT.

Both Tah & Kole: [02:01:55]From my experience, only your belief that you can't get mutual benefit becauseI've had people say, well, it doesn't have the soul. I've done chemicalversions and had just as much access to organic matter because of who I am andhow I connect to the earth in general. When we first moved downtown, someonesaid, "I don't know how you could do that and disconnect from the earthand be in the sky."

I said, "Is thesky not a part of the Earth?" Because nothing can take me from connectionfrom the Earth now that I've been so deeply connected, closing my eyes, I cansit under any tree in the world. I can hold the same eucalyptus tree that I'vehugged 1,000 times outside of Cusco. To me, once you really recognize that youcan't actually be separated from anything, then you can look at the reality ofall of the tools and gifts we have from evolution too.

And then only when wehave the real conversations can we talk about the real solutions. Because someof the chemical teachers are going to be necessary for us to meet the need. Orif everyone goes to do DMT with the Sonoran Desert toad, we've got a year. Ifeveryone goes to do Cambo, we've got three. The need is so much bigger.

Tah: [02:03:03]It's tremendous. And when you consider the amount of people that don't havefinances, for pharmaceutical companies to be able to reproduce a psychedelicsubstance without having to destroy the forest and all of this stuff that couldactually serve people, this is going to be something that's going to be readilyavailable to people who don't have the money to fly to Peru to do all of thisother stuff.

Kole: [02:03:25]Or they're going to clear the jungle to grow Ayahuasca because the jungle is sodense, it can't get enough light. So how do you get the cocoon of vine to growfaster or the vine to grow faster? It needs more sunlight to croon as the otherplant. But the vine for it to grow faster needs more sun which means you clearthe jungle. So there will always be an outcome of the decisions. 

But when we actuallysit down with all of it and elders and talk about it, then we can come up withreal solutions. Right now everyone's trying to choose the one they believe isright, wrong, binary, but they're not looking at all the evidence.

Tah: [02:03:59]People are always building a case on what's right and what's wrong. And this iswhere we get into the judgment space. And this is where people get offended andpeople get into the triangle that we talk about, the drama triangle, thevictim, the villain and the hero, the rescuer, the victor. These are the spacesthat we get into and then we separate each other. 

And the idea ofseparation again, goes back to what Kole was saying, is the idea that all ofthese substances don't come from this planet. They don't come from the plants,don't come from the minerals. All of these things, no matter if they're made ina laboratory or if they're grown in a pot or if they're grown in a forest,whatever it is, this is all from the same planet. Can we get these things to integrate?

And that's why we'rehere to talk about this because integration is not optional. Whether we do itfrom a space of awareness or unawareness, can we be in a space where we bringourselves into awareness and we do this because we choose to, not because we'reforced to? 

And this is where thedifference is I believe in this space we believe. This is why we're doing thiswork. It's because we're interested in getting people into a space where theyfeel safe enough. If people don't feel safe, if they don't feel connected andthey don't feel fulfilled, their nervous systems are going to be on fire. 

Those are the threeplaces of disease unsafe, unfulfilled, and disconnected. When we get safe,connected, and fulfilled, we are in ease. And that is the space where we canmake decisions to integrate ourselves from a space that's highly functional.

Luke Storey: [02:05:23]Hot damn. Well, you guys, I think we did it.

Kole: [02:05:28]19 hours later.

Luke Storey: [02:05:30]I can't drop this mic because it's on my head. But I will drop my notes, dammit. And I love you guys. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. Andthank you for what you guys are creating. I mean, we went to, I want to say apresentation because it was very informal. But when we came to your house theother day, I was like, we got to have a podcast about this. You guys werealready on some cool shit, but I feel like this is bigger than I can almostconceive of at the moment. Your vision is massive.

Kole: [02:05:59]It is.

Luke Storey: [02:05:59]But anyone--

Kole: [02:06:00]It only took 10 grams of mushrooms if you want to see it.

Tah: [02:06:03]The movement is called integration is not optional. That's it. And we  arehonored to have you and anybody else who wants to join the movement. Let'sinform people about integration, not just about psychedelics, about life ingeneral, about this planet.

Luke Storey: [02:06:19]Yeah. And I love what you guys are doing with the coaching program. We're goingto put all that stuff in the show notes, and I'm sure we'll probably be able towrestle a discount for our listeners out of you-- 

Kole: [02:06:28]Yeah, sure.

Luke Storey: [02:06:29]Those that want to attend here in Austin in February, we'll put all the info inthere because it sounds very cool and very needed. And I do have onetestimonial from someone that I know and trust who is like, "It'sawesome." So thank you for putting that together. I mean, when you guyskind of broke that down the other day, I was like, dude, this is a lot.

Kole: [02:06:46]Oh, no, we're--

Tah: [02:06:47]It's a lot of work. 

Luke Storey: [02:06:47]I ran a business for years where we did live events. It's not for the faint atheart. So you have five days and then there is--

Kole: [02:06:59]90 day.

Luke Storey: [02:07:00]90 days after that.

Kole: [02:07:00]With weekly calls and coaching calls to integrate, because again we are helpingyou--

Luke Storey: [02:07:05]So you got to integrate the five days?

Tah: [02:07:07]Yes.

Kole: [02:07:07]Well, because we're helping people come up with a plan for their business. Sowe want to actualize it. Part of our vision is 10,000 coaches that make $10,000in their first round of the Condor approach in a way that is integral andauthentic to them so that they believe they can operate outside of the Westernmodels that are created right now.

And actually be ofservice to their community and determine where the money goes. And I tellpeople all the time, you may not need more money, but your community does andif you don't do something about it than who-- because we can sit and wait forsomeone else all we want to. But if you're well enough to come, then it's you.

Luke Storey: [02:07:47]Awesome. I'm not going to ask you my standard question because you have abeautiful instrument in your hands, so Kole, I assume you're going to give us alittle closing off doing here--

Kole: [02:07:58]Outro.

Luke Storey: [02:07:59]Cool. Let's do it. So for those watching the video--

Kole: [02:08:02]This is called a shruti box.

Luke Storey: [02:08:04]Yeah, I love these things.

Kole: [02:08:05]Music is something that in the space is so important. And again, I'm gratefulto have teachers like Maryn Azoff, Nature Paloma, anyone that loves incrediblemusic if you haven't checked out Olox records on Instagram, she's from the Socapeople of Northern Siberia. She does all the animal noises and I've been takingprivates with her and just learning from lots of different traditions. This isanother way for us to access altered states and Tah and I met because of music.So it's a big part of everything we do.

Luke Storey: [02:08:39]Let it rip.

Kole: [02:08:57][Singing]. It's hidden in the earth, in the plants, in the fire, under water.Open your heart. Open your feeling.  Open up your understanding. Leave your logic behind. And let your soul shine that's been hidden deepinside. Time is now. The time is now to open up your heart and remember howSpirit can heal. How love heal. In order to reach the Almighty, we must firstlearn to be a human. 

Tah: [02:11:56]And when you're a human living in metaphor and allegory, just remember to givethanks for this podcast and Luke Storey for the new things, the traditions, theold relics. Make sure you're integrating your life and integratingpsychedelics, integrating your mind, your body, your spirit, your soul, stayingaway from needing to have control.

Your intention of whatyou want to know, do, be or understand is a place that you can integrate forevery woman, boy, girl and man. For every person on every continent, whetheryou're loaded with money or you can barely pay your rent, whether you have foodon your table, water in your glass, it doesn't matter. Staying the now, not thefuture or the past. 

So I implore and you Ido a door and I'll do this over and over again until my mind and body is sorebecause this comes from the inside, from the ground and the heavens above. Forall the people listening and watching, it is you that I love. Love, love, loveit's never a scam because love for me is synonymous with I am. I am you and youare me.
Together, integrated equals we.

So I thank you all foryour listening. And I thank you all for the shine that you're glistening. Jointhe mission. It's not impossible. The mission for us, integration is notoptional.

Kole: [02:13:36]In order to reach the Almighty, We must first learn to be a human.

Luke Storey: [02:13:57]Wow. Just wow. What an inspiring and dare I say, even transformativeconversation. Well, at least it was for me. Sometimes I have these chats withfolks and I experienced deep healing during the recording of these podcasts.And you'll know if you heard the whole thing, which I assume you have sinceyou're here, We got some pretty personal stuff for me personally, and it'salways this sort of toss up between is my vulnerability going to provide moreof a service to the listeners than it is to damage my ego and embarrass theshow out of me.

So hopefully you guysgot something out of this conversation and it also brings me great joy to havethe opportunity to amplify the TahKole message. I'm just continually impressedby their commitment to integrity, compassion and of course, spreading the goodword of intentional, responsible psychedelic work, which for me personally hasprovided great benefit and much expansion in the recent years.

And of course, I'm alsostoked that they've offered you listeners a $250 off their upcoming five dayLive Condor approach training February 7th through 11th in Austin, Texas. So ifyou're interested in attending their event, enrollment is now open at the timeof this publishing, but it closes December 15th. So I would definitely checkthis out based on all I've learned from them over the years and the incrediblemodel that they've created in terms of their coaching. 

To get all the details,here's what you do, go to lukestorey.com/tahkole, T-A-H-K-O-L-E and the codethere is LUKE250, which gets you again, $250 off your enrollment. But here's ahot tip for you. Now listen up. Even if you have no interest in their trainingprogram, I would very highly recommend grabbing a free copy of theirintegration workbook. I've used it and it's incredible and available at thesame link, which is lukestorey.com/tahkole. 

If you're someone whois exploring the realms of plant medicines or psychedelics or really doing anydeep work, shadow work, things like that, going through a transformation, Ifound this journal to be very robust and very useful. It really is quite agreat workbook. I mean, I called it a journal, but it's really a workbook. It'skind of an after the fact journal. 

At any rate, that'swhat's up with Tah and Kole. So happy they joined me again. It's always a blastto sit down with those two. They're just so enthusiastic and animated. They'rejust my kind of people, my kind of freaks, and if you're listening still atthis point in the podcast, you are too my friends.

But let's talk aboutnext week's episode. This is what's up. This is number 443 coming up. It'scalled Safe Sleeping: The Ultimate Guide to Organic Mattresses and Why ItMatters, featuring OG industry veteran Jack Dell'Accio from EssentiaMattresses. 

Now, I've beenresearching-- I know this sounds crazy because how long can you researchsomething? But that's just how I roll. I like learning what works and whatdoesn't. Now I've been researching healthy, nontoxic mattresses for literally25 years. So this episode was really fun for me to record due to Jack'sextensive knowledge. He's been doing this stuff for so long and it's just areally confusing topic for so many people. So if you're someone who wants todecode the challenging world of natural mattresses, you'll definitely want tocheck out next week's episode number 443. 

All right. That's it,my friends. I'm out. Thank you so much for joining me on yet another episode ofThe Life Stylist Podcast.



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