[00:00:00] Dave Wutumull: We were one of the first twocompanies to launch an astaxanthin dietary supplement in the year 2000. Thisalgae would start off life green, and then when hit by the brutal sunlight inKona in the lava fields, the algae would turn bright red when it producedastaxanthin as a defense mechanism against the UV light.

[00:00:16] Luke Storey: What originally drew me towardastaxanthin specifically was helping to build a solar callus to become moreresilient to sun.

[00:00:25] Dave Wutumull: They're defending themselvesagainst the UV light from the sun, and that's why you were as well. There'sstudies with both oral and topical applications showing reductions in wrinkles,fine lines, and DNA damage and increasing moisture content and elasticity.

[00:00:39] Luke Storey: Is it true that salmon farms feedthe salmon ashin to turn them red?

[00:00:44] Dave Wutumull: It is. They actually feed themashin in their diet. If you went in the lab and said, let's design the perfectmolecule to do all this, I don't think you could come up with something better.[00:01:00]

[00:01:02] Luke Storey: All right, Dave, what got youinto becoming so specialized in an algae? It's such an interesting life path,you know, it's like, I found this one thing, I'm gonna dive deep 'cause I'veheard you speak on it and your level of expertise, I think is unparalleled. Sowhat, you know, what drove you to kind of settle on that?

[00:01:26] Dave Wutumull: Well, I kind of fell into itand the joke always is that I started from the pond up, uh, because as a highschool job, uh, in the summer, uh, in the late nineties, I was introduced tothis company that had a, a group of scientists from the Scripps Institute ofOceanography, um, in La Jolla. And they were on the big island of Hawaiigrowing microalgae.

[00:01:47] And, um, they weretrying to figure out how to commercialize it. Um, my father was working withthe company at the time, helping them. And um, so for me it was a summer joband I got to work in the production in the ponds. And it was fascinatingbecause this [00:02:00] algae would start offlife green, and then when hit by the brutal sunlight in Kona there in the lavafields, the algae would turn bright red when it produced astaxanthin as adefense mechanism against the UV light from the sun.

[00:02:13] And so as we duginto the science and, and found out that, okay, this particular pigmentastaxanthin is what makes salmon pink and lobsters red and gives them theirbeautiful coloration. Um, but it provides so much more than that. You know, itgives them health and vitality and impacts oxidative stress and inflammation.

[00:02:29] And so with all ofthat, we were just, um, you know, determined to see, you know, could webenefit, you know, human health and animal health with this and really figureout how it works and all the potential applications. And so that was just thestart of the thread and just, you know, kept following it. And all these yearslater, the science has exploded.

[00:02:46] All the research hasbeen, uh, so, so, um, exciting and, and all the people that have been impactedhas been really rewarding. So that's, that's what's driven me all these years.

[00:02:55] Luke Storey: Wow. Uh, how many years have youbeen working with this particular topic?

[00:02:59] Dave Wutumull: So it's [00:03:00] probably 28 years, if it was late nineties. Yeah.

[00:03:04] That's great. I usedto say more than 20 years. More than 25. I mean, yeah. It's, it's getting closeto 30 years now.

[00:03:08] Luke Storey: Wow.

[00:03:09] Dave Wutumull: Um, so for me, I started as ateenager and, and now I'm in my forties and I've been working with it thiswhole time. But we've looked at, you know, basic research and, um,nutraceutical, dietary supplement applications, pharmaceutical applications ofthe molecule.

[00:03:23] Um, and, and sojust, it's been a, an adventure.

[00:03:27] Luke Storey: I think I started takingastaxanthin probably, I wanna say maybe 2005 ish.

[00:03:35] Dave Wutumull: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:36] Luke Storey: And, um, yeah, the way that I'vealways operated is I just, I read a little bit, I study a little bit. Trysomething out. Take way more than you're supposed to. Yeah. See what happens.

[00:03:48] You know? But Ithink what originally drew me toward Astaxanthin specifically was, and I, andyou could explain if I was on point with this, but it was around, um, [00:04:00] helping to build a solar callus to becomemore resilient to sun. Um, and also because of its antioxidant effects, I woulduse it, it's funny 'cause I forgot now that I got some of yours, I'm gonnastart again.

[00:04:12] But it was part ofmy, uh, air travel stack. Uh, because of the oxidative stress and free radicalsand EMF and all of those things.

[00:04:20] Dave Wutumull: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:20] Luke Storey: So I think that was, that was thefirst way that I applied it, you know, in my own life. Was there any logic tothat?

[00:04:28] Dave Wutumull: Oh, completely.

[00:04:29] Luke Storey: And so let's just, let's juststart there and we'll, we'll probably end up, you know, going in a number ofdifferent directions.

[00:04:34] But this is, theseare two of my, um, kind of, uh, pet interests and something I really like tohelp people with on the show, EMF, blue Light, you know, how to safely get sunexposure and that kind of thing.

[00:04:47] Dave Wutumull: So, I mean, you're definitelyahead of the times in terms of being onto Astaxanthin. So we were one of thefirst two companies to launch an astaxanthin dietary supplement in the year2000.

[00:04:58] Um, and, but it wasa really [00:05:00] niche small market andmainly in Hawaii. Um, and so to hear about it outside of Hawaii, back in the2005 timeframe, I think was, you know, testament to your kind of curiosity andlooking into the research. I would

[00:05:10] Luke Storey: spend hours at the health food.You ever been to the health food store?

[00:05:14] Um, uh, Eron. In LA

[00:05:17] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. Everyone tells me to gothere. I've been there multiple times and yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:21] Luke Storey: Don't go there unless you, youhave a lot of, uh, available credit on your card because it's very expensive.Go to

[00:05:26] Dave Wutumull: pick up a meal. I mean, it'sreally good. Yeah. Great selection.

[00:05:28] Luke Storey: But I would go there and justlike, comb through the aisles and just read every ingredient and, you know,looking for any inferior ingredients and always trying to find the best in eachcategory.

[00:05:39] So that, I thinkthat's where I probably found it.

[00:05:41] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so,um, and so the reasons you were taking it are spot on. And so you were takingit for the same reasons that the algae were producing it. So they're defendingthemselves against the UV light from the sun, and, and that's why you were aswell.

[00:05:54] And so astaxanthinis distributed systemically gets to your skin, and while it doesn't [00:06:00] absorb the UV light, it can help tomitigate the damage that the UV light can cause, you know? Uh. Onto your DNA oryour proteins or other cellular, uh, components. Um, and so certain moleculesin your, in your cells can be, uh, photos sensitized and become like a higherenergy state that can damage.

[00:06:17] Um, and, um, and sothese reactive oxygen species can damage your, uh, cellular lipids. And DNA andastaxanthin can actually react with singlet oxygen, which is a primary reactiveoxygen species created, um, by, you know, UV light. Exposure. Um, and astaxanthincan actually absorb that energy and because of its, you know, molecularstructure and with its polyline chain backbone, it can actually absorb theenergy and the molecule can vibrate and dissipate the heat safely and notbecome reactive on its own to damage other things.

[00:06:50] And so it's theperfect molecule to mitigate that potential damage from the UV light. And, andso there's studies with both oral and topical [00:07:00]applications showing reductions in, uh, wrinkles and fine lines and DNA damage,um, and, uh, increasing moisture content and elasticity. And so it's, it's kindof thought of as an internal sunscreen, although technically some companies inthe past actually used to market it that way, but got in trouble from the FDA'cause that's considered like a disease drug type of claim.

[00:07:19] Luke Storey: Oh,

[00:07:20] Dave Wutumull: right, right. And so, so it'snot meant to replace sunscreen, which again, it doesn't absorb the UV lightbased on its color of ref reflecting the red light. It absorbs more of the, uh,longer wavelengths, like, like the green type of light. Um, and blue green, um,you know, but again, that energy from the sunlight that can damage the cellularcomponents, it can absorb some of the energy as it's, uh, kind of in the cell,uh, and would otherwise be causing damage.

[00:07:45] So, uh, so from askin health standpoint, um, it's, it's definitely one of the primaryevolutionary, you know, um, reasons that astaxanthin was developed. It actuallyis part of the Carotenoid family, uh, that people may have heard of things likebetacarotene or lutein or [00:08:00] Zan thatare lycopene. And all of these carotinoids, these colorful plant, uh, pigments,co-evolved with photosynthesis to help plants.

[00:08:08] And ashin is kindlike at the end of the evolutionary tree of these croton noises in terms ofoptimizing and perfecting that molecular structure. And so it's perfectlysituated, um, you know, to impact reactive oxygen species free radicals in thecells. Um, and so, yeah, so I think that was a, a perfect thing.

[00:08:26] And then for airtravel, yeah, you're exposed to, um, you know, all types of things. You're,you're probably tired and, and, um, and so the impacts on oxidative stress andinflammation, you know, that ramps up, you know, when you're traveling. Um, andso Assan thing can help to impact and reduce that oxidative stress andinflammation while you're traveling.

[00:08:45] So that certainlyis, is another great reason. But we think of astaxanthin as something that youshould be taking just all the time. And so it'll help you while you'retraveling and maybe you up your dose while you're traveling or doing some, uh,strenuous activity, uh, whatever it may be. But you should have a [00:09:00] baseline level all the time, you know,because you're chronically exposed into environmental stressors, your ownpsychological stress, lifestyle, and other, you know, impacts.

[00:09:09] And, and so no oneis immune to oxidative stress and inflammation, even though you have your ownendogenous built in systems. I mean,

[00:09:16] Luke Storey: if you're mitochondria or makingenergy. Isn't there exhaust, like a form of oxidative stress?

[00:09:22] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. Yeah. And so the wayenergy is produced is, you know, basically a, a movement of electrons in themitochondria.

[00:09:29] And as a byproductof that, a natural byproduct, you have electrons that fall off the assemblyline and, and, uh, react, um, with oxygen and, and become these reactive oxygenspecies. And you have these built-in, uh, antioxidants and systems to deal withthat. But over time, they, you know, uh, kind of run down and becomeoverwhelmed.

[00:09:49] And astaxanthin canhelp to, uh, impact a variety of these reactive oxygen species and, and freeradicals. And so the, the, um, like in the case of the sun exposure, you mayhave singlet [00:10:00] oxygen that's createdby, uh, a difference in energy state, a different spin on the electrons, uh, inthose cases. In the mitochondria with the, um, electrons that are creatingthese reactive oxygen species, those are more free radicals where you're actuallymissing an electron.

[00:10:14] And so those, um,electron hungry free radicals are trying to steal an electron from somethingelse, which is oxidizing and damaging to those components. Astaxanthin canactually donate an electron to those free radicals to neutralize them sothey're no longer reactive. And then astaxanthin again, given its structure,can kind of absorb that loss of that electron and not be reactive and cause anydamage to other cellular components.

[00:10:39] And then berecharged by, say like vitamin C, which can give up an electron to astaxanthinjust like vitamin C does to vitamin E to recharge them or regenerate them. Andso it, it gets, it can basically kind of keep doing that over and over. Um, andso yeah, again, it, it's, wow perfectly situated to impact the reactive oxygenspecies created by mitochondrial energy production.[00:11:00]

[00:11:00] And on top of that,it actually gets to the mitochondria. 'cause not all antioxidants get to themitochondria. And so it gets into the cells, all the membranes of the cells,the outer plasma membrane, the nuclear membrane, and importantly the mitochondrialmembranes, outer and inner. And so it's, it's in the perfect location, um, toprotect those membranes from oxidative damage.

[00:11:20] Luke Storey: That's so interesting. I, Ialways, um, really enjoy when the answer to a problem is found in nature.

[00:11:28] Dave Wutumull: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:28] Luke Storey: You know, it's like whatever Godor power source, however people wanna call it, created this whole thing.

[00:11:35] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:11:35] Luke Storey: Didn't miss any details. Right.There's always a counterbalance when something is, um, is skewed.

[00:11:42] Right. It's likethe, you know, the fish you mentioned, the, uh, salmon and lobsters. Gettinghit with that UV light, the, the plants that are growing in the ocean orgetting hit with the UV light. So nature's like, cool. I know this is gonna bea problem, so let's throw this thing in here as a way to protect.

[00:11:59] It's so [00:12:00] interesting.

[00:12:00] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. I mean, if you went inthe lab and said, okay, let's design the perfect molecule to do all this. Idon't think you could come up with something better. You know, a lot of timespharmaceutical research, you know, these laboratories, they'll, they'll do highthroughput screening of all these different molecules that have never beenpresent in nature and it has an impact on a certain receptor in the cell thatmight be misbehaving, and then they go in and chronically inhibit or activatesomething.

[00:12:22] But that's not hownature intended. Astaxanthin works very differently where it helps to restorebalance and homeostasis and normal function. So it's let's bring things back tonormal rather than go in and do something that is kinda like taking a sledgehammerand it's like whack-a-mole. You do this and then now something else happensbecause it wasn't meant to, to work that way.

[00:12:41] And on top ofitself, being an antioxidant directly, it actually can help to ramp up yourendogenous antioxidant production. Um, and so it helps to activate Nerf two,which can basically go into the nucleus and, um, activate your antioxidantresponse, um, element, which kind of [00:13:00]triggers the production of glutathione and other in, you know, endogenous,built-in antioxidants.

[00:13:04] So it helps to wow,support your built-in, but also directly be front lines. Um, so it's, it'sreally well suited.

[00:13:10] Luke Storey: That's crazy.

[00:13:11] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:13:11] Luke Storey: Um, going back to the interactionwith light. Which I, and I would also just include EMF in light because itessentially is invisible light in a way.

[00:13:23] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:13:24] Luke Storey: Maybe not even in a way.

[00:13:25] I guess that's kindof what it is. So, as you were describing it before, say we have, uh, damagefrom UV light, and this isn't, astaxanthin isn't, you know, a protecting interms of a shield, but it's coming in after the fact for the free radicals andinflammation and whatnot that have been created. When you were describing that,I thought about, you know, the frustration and futility of trying to protectyourself from EMF because it's ubiquitous, right?

[00:13:54] It's like, I mean,in this house we have some shielded bedrooms and things. We've gone to greatlengths to at least have [00:14:00] certainrooms that are a sanctuary from that. But the fact is you have to live life andthe reality of starlink satellites over your head and

[00:14:07] Dave Wutumull: may not be working with thatplant in the corner, right.

[00:14:09] Like you said.

[00:14:10] Luke Storey: Exactly. So the way I. Approach.The EMF issue, and it's something I cover a lot, uh, on the show, is you kindof have two sides of it. One is the physical protection, which is actuallyshielding it so you're not hit with, uh, hit with the um, frequencies. But thenthe, I think the more practical route for many of us is to try to build ourinternal resilience.

[00:14:33] And it sounds likeif we have something like astaxanthin, I know we can't make medical claims orwhatever, but I'm just thinking through this kind of logically putting two andtwo together, that if the UV light damage is mitigated kind of on the other sideof that, then it seems like there's a possibility that this could be supportivein helping us to be more resilient to the effects of emf.

[00:14:57] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:14:57] Luke Storey: Right. That we can't. Stop.

[00:14:59] Dave Wutumull: [00:15:00]Exactly. So in the case of UV light, um, it's not absorbing the UV light, butit's also not waiting until all the damage has occurred to then go and fix itor stop it. It's more of a cascade or a series of events where UV light, um,goes into the cell and sensitizes some molecules that are photos sensitive.

[00:15:18] Those become highenergy, almost like Tasmanian devils that are now bouncing around and causingdamage to lipids and proteins and DNA, but before those molecules, uh, orsorry, those molecules can, uh, react with, uh, oxygen to be, to create likeCID oxygen, which is this high energy oxygen, uh, that has this electrons.

[00:15:37] It's not missing anelectron like a free radical, but it's electrons are spinning in differentdirections that causes it to have this high energy. So again, the UV light.Hits these photosensitive molecules that then react with oxygen to createcingulate oxygen. Astaxanthin can go in and stop that singlet oxygen in itstracks before it can go and damage lipids and proteins and DNA Oh.

[00:15:56] So it's kind ofstopping it in the tracks there. And it's probably the [00:16:00]most potent cingulate oxygen scavenger in nature based on research showing itsthousands of, of times stronger than vitamin C and, and vitamin E and coq 10and, and all these other antioxidants that are well known. Um, and again, it'sgiven its structure, its long Pauline chain backbone, um, and its terminal ringgroups.

[00:16:17] It, it has, it'sjust perfectly designed to, um, you know, kind of absorb that energy, you know,vibrate it out as heat, uh, safely, or in the case of free radicals, wherethey're missing electronic and donate that electron. So it's kind of stoppingthem in their tracks. In the case of blue light. Again, it based on, its, um,its structure and how it reflects red light.

[00:16:37] If you look at acolor wheel, you can see, okay, well if this molecule is red, it, you know, youtake the opposite side of the color wheel and you can see, oh, okay. It'sbasically absorbing kinda like the blue green type of, of light. Butastaxanthin interestingly has some relatives, um, lutein and zeaxanthin thatare closely related, um, ziltoid kind of brothers or sisters that, [00:17:00] uh, actually are more orange looking and,and they absorb blue light and there's actually specific receptors in your eyesthat, uh, look for lutein zeaxanthin and pull them into the macula, uh, of youreye.

[00:17:12] And so they are partof your macular pigment and they actually absorb blue, the blue light. And sothat can help to, um, protect yourself against the damage from blue light withastaxanthin. It also cross crosses the blood brain and blood retinal barrier,so it gets into your eye tissue, but it's not just preferentially localized inthe back.

[00:17:32] And the macula, likelutein and xanthin, it's distributed throughout the tissues of the eye. And forany other reactive oxygen species that may be created from any blue lightexposure, UV light exposure, et cetera, or internal oxidative stress and inflammation,it can fight those off throughout the eye. So they compliment each other reallywell in terms of direct blue light absorbing, um, with the lutein nantum, uh,and then kind of the complimentary protection against oxidative stress,inflammation for [00:18:00] masses Anthem alsoin the eye.

[00:18:01] So it's a perfectcompliment. Um, and that

[00:18:03] Luke Storey: sounds like a really great.Health stack E

[00:18:06] Dave Wutumull: Exactly. And, and so there'sactually research. The Arids uh, study, the Arids two study with, um, NIH thattested a supplement formulation of primarily lutein and Zs Santin and someother antioxidants and things, uh, actually in a, uh, disease population withage related macular degeneration.

[00:18:23] And they showed thatif you gave, uh, the, those combinations of, of carotinoids and otherantioxidants, it reduced, uh, the age-related macular degeneration. Uh, and itturns out that in your macular pigment, if you measure how much lutein andxanthin you have, as that level goes down, the risk of age-related maculardegeneration goes up.

[00:18:42] So it's directlyrelated. Um, and there's also research showing when you add astaxanthin to thestack, although it's not as robust as the initial research with just LUT NZxanthin, but if they were to add astaxanthin, probably would, you know.Mechanistically have even better impact because of some [00:19:00] follow on studies have shown impacts on vision, health,um, not just in the area of disease applications like age-related maculardegeneration, but you know, acuity and tear production and, uh, and otheraspects of eye health wherein has demonstrated benefits.

[00:19:16] And even I'llmention in a study in school aged children that were like 12 years old, theygave them just a dose of astaxanthin, not even lutein or zeaxanthin. And theywere looking at the effects of digital eye strain from staring at screens andall of that blue light exposure. And after a few months of time, they looked atthose with or without astaxanthin.

[00:19:34] And those withastaxanthin had significant improvements in their eye health as measured bykind of, uh, standard assessments of, of eye strain and related, you know,head, you know, headaches and other types of, um, you know, blurriness andfocusing and all of of those things. So it actually was, uh, demonstrating abenefit for children's eye health, for digital eye strain.

[00:19:53] But I think youcould probably extrapolate that to the general population for digital eyestream.

[00:19:58] Luke Storey: I have a lot of the digital eye [00:20:00] stream right now. I've been on a computera lot for the past couple years.

[00:20:03] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:20:04] Luke Storey: More than I'd like to. Um, so youguys have the. A X three astaxanthin covered, like I've not seen anyone do itbetter than you have, and we can explain, um, in, in a minute how that came tobe.

[00:20:18] Do you happen topersonally have a couple recommendations on brands for the other two, theLieutenant and the z xanthin, or have you guys thought about making an eyeformula where you, you know, put the correct. Kind of, uh, mixture and dosesdosage together that would be impactful specifically for the eyes?

[00:20:36] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, so we do have plans to dothat in the future. In the meantime, um, there is a product called Preservationthat people may have heard about. It may be Bausch and lom. Uh, but it, it's a,it's a well-known consumer health, uh, you know, product brand. And, and it, itdoes have the, uh, same formulation that was tested in that NIH Arids two studyfor age-related macular degeneration.

[00:20:58] So that wouldprobably [00:21:00] be the appropriate sourceto get the same formulation tested, uh, for lutein and Zant and, and a fewother related ingredients. Cool. And if you stack that with Assan, then thatwould. Be a real, I'm doing it stack.

[00:21:10] Luke Storey: I'm on it. Uh, for thoselistening and watching, you can find the show notes, uh, which will include anylinks that we happen to throw out@lukestory.com slash ax three, the numberthree, life ax, three life, and we'll put that in the show description too, tomake it clickable.

[00:21:26] I really need to geton that. Both my wife and I have been, you know, noticing the distance visionfading for a while. Hers seems to be going quickly. I, I think I preserve mine'cause I just, I get outside as much as possible and I take a lot of breaksfrom, you know, looking at things up close. Mm-hmm. Um, and also when I got aprescription a few years ago, I'm, I'm very, I limit my use of it, so I don'tget too dependent on that level of clarity.

[00:21:53] But even sittinghere right now, it depends on the day. Like you're a little bit blurry rightthere.

[00:21:57] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Luke Storey: Some days it's more clear thanothers, you know, just, I don't know [00:22:00]what. Triggers that I got great sleep last night.

[00:22:02] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:22:02] Luke Storey: So I'm like, man, I really can'tstand wearing glasses. It's just annoys the shit outta me.

[00:22:07] So I really am gonnaput some focused attention into eye health.

[00:22:11] Dave Wutumull: No, I, I definitely agree.That's a great approach. And yeah, I've had my fair share of, of issues with,with my eyes, or in particular my left eye, where in high school I actually hada blunt force trauma injury where with a tennis racket, where I was in a tennistournament.

[00:22:24] And, um, and we werecoming back from a, you know, at the trip and my friend decided, uh, you know,I'm, I have this old racket. It's, it's not even worth res stringing at thispoint. I'm just gonna get a new one. And he, he was, uh, wanting to just like,oh, let's just break it on the curve when we get back to to school.

[00:22:39] And so he took a fewswings at the curb and it was kind of like the, the racket was, um, dented up,but it wasn't broken. And so he hands it to me and I'm like, okay, I'm sure Ican probably break it. And I do one swing on the curb. And that's the pointthat all that tension, the racket gives, and the racket just busted apart, butthere's no strings to hold it.

[00:22:58] In place. And so allthat [00:23:00] tension from the frame hit mein the eye and actually shattered the lens, tore the iris. And, and I hadmultiple surgeries. There was issues with the pressure in my eye. Oh yeah. Itwas scary because I got rushed to the hospital and they go in and, you know,cover my right eye and, and ask me to see, you know, see, um, can you read, youknow, anything on the, the eye chart?

[00:23:19] And, um, and I'mlike, no. And they're like, even the top row is fine. You know, like the big EI'm like, no, it's literally black. I can't see anything. 'cause it was full ofblood 'cause of the trauma. Um, and so, wow. He has multiple surgeries and, andultimately, you know, they were able to restore, um, you know, normal pressurein the eye and, and, um, and vision and, and, um, but it was, it was definitelyscary.

[00:23:39] And so I, thatdefinitely gave me an introduction to the eye and eye health early on. That wasalso in high school, uh, around the same time that I got introduced toastaxanthin.

[00:23:47] Luke Storey: Damn, that's hairy.

[00:23:49] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I justturned my head a little bit to the left, it would've missed completely. But youknow, it is just how things go.

[00:23:54] Luke Storey: Wow. Well, you know, it might'vebeen part of. Part of your journey somehow. That's how I try to look at thingslike that. [00:24:00] Yeah. When we go throughchallenges, I'm just, you know, not like there has to be a reason. Mm-hmm. Badthings happen, but I think the way we frame things as good or bad has a lot todo with the outcome, you know?

[00:24:11] Mm-hmm. Shaping theoutcome towards something useful.

[00:24:14] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:24:14] Luke Storey: But that's, that sounds scary outthat there's any part of my body I would not want ever hurt. It's probably myeyes.

[00:24:20] Dave Wutumull: Oh yeah. Or like when you'regoing in, in for surgeries and they have to, um, you know, give you shots to,to numb it up to do things.

[00:24:27] And normally theywould put me under, but there was one of the emergency surgeries where theydidn't have time to actually put me under. They had to just do local and, youknow, getting shots in and around the eye. Crazy or waking up while they'restill operating and you can basically see them doing things as you're waking upand coming out.

[00:24:43] It's just

[00:24:44] Luke Storey: my

[00:24:44] Dave Wutumull: god. Wild.

[00:24:45] Luke Storey: I remember years ago I drove myyounger brother to get a LASIK and, um. I picked him up and he had that eyepatch on. No, I get No, he had both of 'em covered. Yeah, it was on both eyes.Duh. And um, I had to lead him around for a couple days,

[00:24:59] Dave Wutumull: you know?

[00:24:59] Luke Storey: Yeah. [00:25:00]And I was like, I'm never doing

[00:25:01] Dave Wutumull: that.

[00:25:01] That's bold to doboth at once because you know, something happens.

[00:25:04] Luke Storey: He's just terrifying. I wassomething about that.

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[00:26:34] Lukestory.com/quantum upgrade. And don't forget to use that code, Luke 15 to getthe free hookup. Um, so let's, let's talk about the, um, the, the production ofAstaxanthin. I think when I got into it, I think the company was Bio Astin.Mm-hmm.

[00:26:52] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. So actually Bio Astin isthe brand that was produced by the company literally across the street from usin Kona when we were first [00:27:00]developing this pegy or launching it.

[00:27:02] And so they weregrowing spirulina and then they started growing Hemato, Occus pvi als, which isthe type of, of algae microalgae that produces astaxanthin. Our team was alsogrowing that same algae, uh, and we had a smaller facility with, with fewer ponds.Um, and so at the time, um, you know, it was early days.

[00:27:19] There were no.Supplements on the market. And so the biotin product and then our product,which was called Asaf Factor, uh, the company was called Aqua Search at thetime. Uh, we were the first two companies in that 99, 2000 timeframe to launchsupplements in the US with AST Anthem. And so yeah, biotin has been a strongbrand for many years, helped to kind of build awareness, uh, a lot in thetriathlete and marathon communities.

[00:27:43] And, and, um, youknow, the Ironman triathletes in, in Kona utilized it early on. And, and soyeah, biotin, um, you know, is a good reputable brand. And so, um, the reasonthough that we shifted away from that type of production, which is essentiallyyou're growing the algae in [00:28:00] tubesand then transferring it into these big open ponds, which if you fly into Konaon the big island of Hawaii, you'll see these big colorful ponds, either greenor red and paddle wheels that are kind of moving the, the water around with thealgae.

[00:28:12] Um, but you areexposed to the elements there. Um, and so while it is the nice Hawaiian air andHawaiian sunlight, um, you do also have the, the airport right next by nearbywith the planes flying over. You have the volcano and the vog, you have birds, and,and so it's just, it's not as controlled and, and, um, you know, kind of, um,free of potential contaminants, uh, as doing it either in enclosed tubes.

[00:28:34] And there's other,uh, groups, um, like Asal, uh, which is, um, owned by Fuji Chemical in, inJapan and all. And also, um, Swedish group. Uh, Asal was the initial kind oftechnology creator. They actually had production on Maui for a little while,and then they moved to Washington State to an area in Grant County, which, um,even though I was born and raised in Hawaii, I ended up moving to WashingtonState for high [00:29:00] school and wasactually in that same county where this a, is also produced because it hascheap hydroelectric power.

[00:29:07] Um, and, and so thegrowing the algae takes a lot of water, uh, land, resources, energy, and sothat's why they, they chose this area in Washington state to do that, but theydo it indoors and entirely enclosed. And so. It's not, uh, you know, exposed tothe, the elements or potential contaminants. There's also a group in Iceland,uh, doing, uh, the same thing indoors with geothermal, uh, renewable energy,which is cool and kind of, you know, clean Icelandic water.

[00:29:32] Um, and, and so, butin all those cases, um, you know, you're still growing the microalgae and thentrying to extract as much asan than from it, and you'll get anywhere from, itused to be 5% and now it can be, you know, 10 or even 15, or maybe even morepercent, maybe 20%, not at the max. The aan then, you know, but you're stillgetting, you know, 90% ish other stuff from the algae, other algal, you know,related carotinoids and proteins and lipids and things that are not [00:30:00] necessarily bad for you.

[00:30:00] It's just not theactive molecule that you need.

[00:30:03] Luke Storey: Ah, I see. Because I rememberthe, the, the one I used to take was a quite a big, uh, capsule. A

[00:30:09] Dave Wutumull: soft gel.

[00:30:10] Luke Storey: Yeah, A soft gel. Yeah. And itwas like, um, yeah, like a liquid, like a red, yeah. Like a fish oil almost.

[00:30:15] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. So they create this oleresin where they take, they take the algal biomass and they, you know, kind of,uh, use supercritical CO2 to try to purify down, to get, just as you know, muchastaxanthin out of it as possible.

[00:30:27] Um, and then that isstandardized in a certain type of oil. In the old days used to be likesafflower oil or other oils. And then now there's, there's other groups doingolive oil and coconut oil that are, you know, maybe a little bit healthier thansome of the earlier oils that were used. Um, but yeah, it's an oil suspension,uh, with a, you know, say 10% asan and extract in the oil, and then that's putinto a soft gel.

[00:30:49] And it could be likea traditional gelatin capsule, uh, soft gel, or it could be like a, a vegansoft gel, um, in, in recent years. But that's what most of the products on themarket are. Um, [00:31:00] in our case, uh,after a few years of, of growing the microalgae and, and launching that firstsupplement. One of the first two, I think biotin was a few months before us,but it was basically around the same time we actually thought, you know, thiscould actually have pharmaceutical applications, you know, to impact disease,you know, for, for people.

[00:31:15] And so let's diveinto the research. And, but for FDA purposes, it's harder. Even though thereare botanical drug pathways, it's very hard to take a plant extract justbecause the characterization of, you know, what that is, and having it beconsistent and pure and scalable, um, is not, you know, really well suited forpharmaceutical.

[00:31:34] And so we said, canwe work in the laboratory to basically just produce the Assan molecule that youwould get from the algae or from the salmon, you know, but without any of theother stuff there and do it. High purity, very consistent. And so that's whatwe did. We focused on that for several years. In addition to that, you know,came up with ways to make it very well absorbed.

[00:31:52] And there's avariety of different ways you can do that. But also did research into looking,you know, how does it work in, in the body? We worked with a researcher [00:32:00] that has an appointment at Harvard, butalso his own private research firm, and looked at how astaxanthin spans andstabilizes cellular membranes and is very different than other antioxidants.

[00:32:09] Um, and based on itsstructure, it perfectly spans and doesn't disrupt the lipids in the membrane.We did other studies showing impacts on, um, liver, um, enzymes or potentialliver damage from alcohol or, you know, kind of fatty liver types of, of issues.Um, we also looked at cardiovascular issues, looking at blood clots and, andpreventing those either primary, primary, uh, occlusion or secondary occlusionof arteries.

[00:32:33] And so we had somereally cool data that we generated all in kind of the pharmaceutical researchand we were actually, you know, on track, uh, to take an astaxanthin, um, youknow, laboratory produced form. Um. Through FDA clinical development, um, as adrug for heart disease. And we had a, um, uh, a term sheet from a major SanDiego based venture capital group that was one of the icons of the biotechindustry.

[00:32:59] Helped to create oneof the first [00:33:00] biotech companies. Um,but then we got that term sheet in August of 2008 when there was the majorglobal financial crisis. And so he was unable to, uh, to fund at that time. Uh,and we basically had to kind of figure things out for a few years. And, andafter a few years we almost did another deal with, um, a major pharma company,but, uh, ultimately didn't work out there.

[00:33:20] And we decided,okay, it's not feasible to keep going down the pharmaceutical. Let's come backto the supplement space and bring the learnings of the, the rigor of themanufacturing, the purity, the bioavailability, and learn and understanding,you know, really how it works in, in the cells and the potential applicationsfor heart and brain and liver and skin and eye.

[00:33:38] And, but let'slaunch, launch a supplement form. So kind of like a pharmaceutical gradeversion in terms of purity, but still delivering the natural product, the exactnatural molecule that you would find in nature. So that's what we did, uh,ultimately. Um, and we had a brand that was, uh, sold in GNC stores and, and,uh, was really popular there in the, in the antioxidant [00:34:00] category and in Hawaii stores.

[00:34:01] Um, and we actuallydid a study where we took, um, it was biotin. Uh, we, we typically don't, youknow. Call out biotin specifically, but we call it just kinda like normalastaxanthin or ordinary astaxanthin. But we actually did purchase biotin offthe shelf and we got a group of human volunteers, um, at a contract researchorganization and, um, you know, gave them a meal 'cause it's best absorbed witha meal, and then gave them two 12 milligram capsules of biotin.

[00:34:28] Uh, so soft gel withan oil suspension of astaxanthin, but 12 milligrams in each capsule and thentook their blood at multiple time points over 24 hours and then sent the, theblood samples through the lab where you, where you have very precise methods thatcan analyze exactly how much astaxanthin is in the blood.

[00:34:44] And then we sent thesame, the, the group of people home for a week so that all the astaxanthinwould wash out their system, um, come back and there's no longer anyastaxanthin measurable in their blood. Gave them two 12 milligram capsules of,of our astaxanthin. And it was the exact same group [00:35:00]of people, so not a different group where you could have variability measuredtheir blood at, uh, multiple time points, again over 24 hours.

[00:35:06] And the, the resultsshowed that we got three times more of the astaxanthin absorbed into thebloodstream, both at the maximum concentration, but also the total exposureover the 24 hours. So you got so much more absorbed versus passing it through,uh, you know, in, into the toilet. 'cause it's, it's not even, you know, peedout.

[00:35:24] It's actuallyexcreted out if you don't absorb it. So it's literally you're just going intothe toilet. Um, and, um,

[00:35:30] Luke Storey: I like to call that expensivepee.

[00:35:31] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. So in this case it'd beexpensive poop, I guess so, um, yeah. Yeah. So, so that was a major, majorfinding that it was three times more bioavailable and there was lessvariability from person to person again in the same group of people.

[00:35:45] So when you couplethat with, you know, enhanced purity. And the laboratory, um, production isactually more environmentally sustainable because it doesn't take as much landand energy and water and resources. Um, and so to address a, you know, a potentialglobal market where [00:36:00] virtuallyeveryone could benefit from ASEs Anthem, we thought, okay, this would probablybe the best way to bring this to the world.

[00:36:06] Um, and so. That'sreally what differentiates, uh, a X three versus the other, uh, like biotintypes of products on the market. But again, with that said, you know, ifcertain people want to have, you know, the Lgal version, they want the Hawaiianalgae version, or they want, you know, the version from Iceland, um, you know,or the version from Washington State.

[00:36:25] Um, all of those arehigh quality versions of ashin. You may absorb a little bit less, um, butyou're still gonna be in a much better place than not taking it at all. Right.And we actually have plans, just like we're talking about with the, the vision healthproduct to introduce an algal form to back to our product line here, just togive people kind of options on, on, you want the laboratory highly pure, highlyabsorbed one.

[00:36:47] Do you want thealgal form? Um, you know, which would be more natural in the sense of sourcedfrom a. Manmade, natural, you know, growing the algae, but you know, by humans,uh, not like [00:37:00] going into the oceanand extracting, you're basically creating ponds where you grow it. But, uh,giving people the options to pick what they want.

[00:37:05] But in our case,even with the laboratory form, it's still the natural molecule. I mean, it'sthe same chemical structure, the same carbons and hydrogens and oxygens. It'sjust whether the algae make it or, or we make it

[00:37:16] Luke Storey: right.

[00:37:16] Dave Wutumull: So, yeah.

[00:37:17] Luke Storey: Um, I mean, it, it sounds like,you know, bang for your buck wise, 'cause nobody likes to waste money, and Iappreciate how respectful you are of, you know, other people in the space.

[00:37:27] Um, I, I find mostof the time people sit down here and that, you know, they have their, theirthing, their company, and people don't typically shit on other companies. Yeah.

[00:37:37] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:37:37] Luke Storey: I, and I, you know, unlesssomeone's doing something harmful to people, I, you know, yeah. I'm alwaysrespectful and there's, yeah. I think it's important that there's.

[00:37:44] There's a varietyfor people to choose from. I mean, that's, yeah, that's what free market's allabout. That said, I mean, if I'm taking it, it's usually a 12 milligram dose.

[00:37:53] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:37:53] Luke Storey: Generally

[00:37:53] Dave Wutumull: there are some lower doses, uh,but 12 is, is probably the one that most people would wanna be taking.

[00:37:57] Luke Storey: So if I'm taking 12 [00:38:00] milligram dose, uh, from a, a, you know,another company, but it's only like up to 20% astaxanthin in that.

[00:38:08] Am I getting thatright from what you were sharing earlier? Um,

[00:38:10] Dave Wutumull: well, it's, it's say 10%astaxanthin, but when, when it is 12 milligrams, it is 12 milligrams ofastaxanthin. Got it. Okay. It might be, you know, the other, um, you know, ahundred, you know, uh. 10 milligrams of other lgal stuff. Oh, okay. So you're stillgetting 12 milligrams whether you take ours or theirs.

[00:38:28] It's just how muchof the 12 milligrams do you absorb? Right. And in our case, um, it's not justthe astaxanthin in the capsule because if we only put astaxanthin in thecapsule, that also wouldn't be absorbed by the body. It's just based on itsstructure. And so we formulate it. Um, and so we have a, a starchy matrix wherewe take a little bit of modified food starch, which typically you wouldn't wantto eat starches and, and, and things.

[00:38:51] Um, but. This ismilligram amounts where if you were eating it in your diet, you'd be consuminggrams of it. Um, and so you take this, uh, little bit of [00:39:00] modified food star, almost like instantoats where, or instant potatoes where it's just, it's really water dispersable.You, you basically take the astaxanthin rather than it being tightly stackedtogether like a brick, it kind of disperses it into this cloud of, of thestarch that is water dispersable.

[00:39:15] Oh, okay. Andthere's a little bit of glucose syrup in there to kind of stick it together.And glucose syrup, you know, IE sugar would again not be something you wouldtypically want, but the level that you would have in one 12 milligram capsuleis less than a 10th of half a gram. And if, if you were, you know, creatingsay, a, a beverage, you know, a can of soda or, or whatever type of drink.

[00:39:37] If you had less thanhalf a gram of sugar, you technically could market it as sugar free accordingto the fda. Oh. Because that's kind of threshold. That's, and we're less than a10th of that level, so its, it would be like sugar free, you know? Yeah. And ifyou were even buying, you know, drinks and, and one had 20 grams of sugar andone had five grams and one had one gram, you'd be like, oh, wow.

[00:39:55] One gram, that'sbest, pretty good. You know, this is less than a 10th of half a gram. [00:40:00] So again, it's, it's there for afunctional reason to make it really well dispersed in the aqueous gut fluid.Um, and, and then allowing to be really well absorbed. Um, and so some people,when they look at our other ingredients, they're like, oh, what is all thiscrap in here?

[00:40:14] I don't, you know,I'm, I, I'm health conscious. I don't wanna be, you know, eating sugars andstarches and things, but it's very low levels and it's actually what makes itso bioavailable.

[00:40:22] Luke Storey: I noticed that when I was lookingat the, the ingredient deck on the back. Mm-hmm. It's like 0.05 of whateverstarch

[00:40:29] Dave Wutumull: we tried to explain.

[00:40:30] 'cause before, whenwe first launched it, we just listed them and then people were like, oh my God,what is this? Then we say, okay, it's. You know, it's really a low level and,and we've tried to explain this is why it's there. Um, and so, but we are exploringother formulations, uh, as well that can hopefully allow it to be bioavailable,but maybe using different ingredients.

[00:40:46] And so we'llcontinue to, um, you know, kind of research that and, and introduce newproducts. But we just have this one kind of flagship version that we know worksreally well, has been absorbed really well in that human study. We did acardiovascular health study where we took [00:41:00]real world, um, you know, cardiovascular, um, patients that, um, at a localclinic in Hawaii that had either heart disease or risk factors for heartdisease.

[00:41:09] Um, and we had a, itis a randomized placebo controlled trial where you had a placebo group, you hada low dose group and a high dose group, and we gave them three months oftreatment. We got reductions in LDL cholesterol, but importantly oxidized, LDL.'cause when it becomes oxidized, that's when it's especially bad.

[00:41:26] It can lead to foamcells and plaque buildup and rupture. And that's really, um, you know, what youwanna pay attention to is, is oxidized, LDL in particular. So we had reductionsin that, also reductions in blood pressure and some other markers that werereally exciting. So, and this was kind of a smaller pilot type of study.

[00:41:43] Um, and it was, itwas meant to be a little bit bigger, but it was started just before COVID. Andso we actually had to suspend it. But based on how far we got, we had aninterim review based on like the first 40 or so subjects, and actually gotstatistical significance in some of those biomarkers, even with, with, withthat group, [00:42:00] which was really cool.

[00:42:00] Luke Storey: Wow.

[00:42:00] Dave Wutumull: Because it was, it was meant tobe like a couple hundred people. Uh, but we had to stop recruitment andultimately stop the study. But based on that initial review we had, you know,statistically significant results, which was, which was really exciting. Uh, soagain, that was with this formulation. That's why, you know, we really thinkit's, it's exciting.

[00:42:16] And then, uh, tokind of switch gears, the, the NIH Interventions testing program, which is thisprominent longevity lifespan, you know, assessment, um, has been. Going for thelast 20 or so years. And it's this highly rigorous gold standard ian model oflifespan that's conducted at three different institutions.

[00:42:37] It's at theUniversity of Michigan, the University of Texas in San Antonio, and then agroup in Maine as well, a research institution there, the Jackson Labs. And sothey, they have mice that are specifically bred to, uh, look at longevity. Itis not your typical inbred laboratory mice that are not translatable to humansin a lot of cases.

[00:42:57] They might be veryspecific for a certain disease area, [00:43:00]but aging is more complex and, and complicated. And so these are geneticallyheterogeneous mice, um, that are, you know, hopefully much more translatable topotential human health and, and aging. And so they have thousands of mice eachyear that are, uh, set up into a new cohort.

[00:43:17] This group at theNIH, the the Interventions testing program, um, or specifically it's funded byNIH, but it's these independent investigators. They select, you know, the topfive or so agents that they think might have an impact on longevity based on preliminaryresearch. Each year, start a new cohort and follow them for a few years to seehow long they live and if it actually extends lifespan.

[00:43:39] And this is theprogram that put rapamycin on the map as an actual longevity agent. Um, youknow, truly in, in, in mammals showing extension of life multiple times in, inthat 20 year timeframe, only about five agents, including rapamycin, haveextended lifespan more than 10%. Um, we were fortunate based on the researchwith astaxanthin showing [00:44:00] that itimpacts lifespan, you know, extends lifespan in worms and fruit flies andyeast, um, and impacts all these pathways related to aging like mTOR, theSirtuins, uh, et cetera, A MPK.

[00:44:13] Uh, and so based onall of that and the fact that we impacted FOX oh three, which is the anti-aginggene in this collaboration with the University of Hawaii, um, the N-I-H-I-T-Pinvestigators selected us to supply shin to the ITP program. And so back in2019, we started sending them, um, the astaxanthin formulation.

[00:44:33] After a few yearswhen the study was done, it turns out that astaxanthin did extend the lifespan,uh, in, in the male mice by 12% with very high statistical significance. Damn.There's only, again, around five or so other agents that are basically repurposeddrugs. Like rapamycin is, is a drug that was used for like, as animmunosuppressant for organ transplants and then it, they found out, oh, itactually impacts a pathway related to longevity and extends lifespan eventhough it has side effects and tolerability [00:45:00]issues that, you know, uh, make it something that you probably wouldn't wannabe taking every day.

[00:45:04] And people aretrying to find different doses and derivatives, but it's not something thateveryone would just wanna jump onto and take every day, even if it technicallycould extend lifespan. There's other kind of diabetes types of drugs or, ordrugs that impact metabolic health. Demonstrated efficacy in the model.

[00:45:19] Um, but we're the,the first molecule that is like a supplement that's broadly accessible, that'sexceptionally safe, that also extended lifespan by more than 10% in this model.And this is in the 20 year history of the program. And it's highly rigorous,like I said, conducted at three different sites in parallel, you know, youknow, in triplicate.

[00:45:37] And so, and youcan't buy your way into this program. It's based on them selecting you based onyour preliminary Oh, really? And so you kind of apply. And our collaborators atthe University of Hawaii that generated the, the data with Fox oh three, again,this anti-aging gene, uh, showing that we could impact that in the heart tissueof mice.

[00:45:55] Um, you know, theNIG investigators selected us and, and we work with them to figure out the [00:46:00] dosing and they basically create chow forthe mice that, um, you know, consume in addition to the chow as part of it.They have the active ingredient. And, um, and so to supply that, uh, to the ITPand then show that it worked was, was really exciting.

[00:46:14] Um, that's us.That's a major breakthrough because Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's, that's alegitimate longevity mammalian model where a lot of things maybe have worked inthe fruit flies or the worms, but to do it in a mammal, um, and again, in thishighly rigorous, you know, study with huge numbers of, of animals and whichagain, ideally you would test everything in humans only, you know, but inparticular for something like lifespan, it's not really feasible.

[00:46:36] It's not feasible totest. In humans. 'cause it would take decades, you know, to start someonemiddle age and, and follow them. And I mean, you could do it, but just wewouldn't know until the next generation. Yeah.

[00:46:44] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:46:45] Dave Wutumull: Um, and so that's why, youknow, the mice are used in, in this case. And, and, um, and so that was, thatwas really exciting and, and was a major breakthrough for, for us as Anthem.

[00:46:53] And, and actuallyagain, with our form that we supplied our formulation, you know, et cetera, etcetera.

[00:46:58] Luke Storey: I mean, that's cool because fromwhat I [00:47:00] understand, um, studies arequite expensive and that's one thing that prevents a lot of supplementmanufacturers from being able to get rigorous data is like, yeah, you have to,you know, build a company and then market your product and you know, who haslike, oh yeah, there's a side budget over there, a few, you know, million tothrow at studies.

[00:47:19] Sounds like it'skind of a. Fortuitous chain of events that you guys were gearing toward more ofa pharmaceutical acquisition or, you know, going for that model. It seems likethat kind of got you involved in some studies and, and allowed you guys to actuallyget some meaningful data, yet be able to pivot and go direct to consumer in thesupplement space, but actually have the rigor of studies to back you up.

[00:47:47] 'cause a, you know,a lot of anyone can throw, throw a label on the supplement and be like, oh, itdoes this, it does that. And it's like, well where's the proof, you know?

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[00:49:25] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. Yeah. And so, so yeah. Soour team over the years have, you know, published probably like 50 or sopeer-reviewed papers, um, you know, on various aspects of, of studies with,with, um, astaxanthin molecules.

[00:49:38] Like there's, we cando different derivatives or formulations and, and so we've contributed a lot tothat or that some of the basic research, like I said, looking at how, how italigns in cellular membranes and, and things. Um, but also over this period ofthe last, you know, couple decades now, or, or almost three decades, it's justbeen internationally researched, uh, so extensively.

[00:49:56] So at the time in,in the late nineties, there were maybe less than [00:50:00]200 peer-reviewed papers, which is not nothing, but still, you know, a lot ofthings that are well researched, have thousands of papers. And, and now after,you know, 28 years, you know, now there's more than 4,000 peer reviewed paperswith astaxanthin.

[00:50:11] And so we obviouslyhaven't done all of that, or even. Even a majority of that. And we've, we'vedone less than a hundred peer-reviewed papers. But still, you know, the factthat it's been so extensively researched, you know, internationally, you know, addsto the scientific credibility, uh, of the molecule. And on top of that, youknow, there's been extensive safety testing, like high dose, long-term toxicitytesting, um, which, uh, underscores it, its, uh, its safety and, and again,that mechanism that we talked about where it's not going in and chronicallyinhibiting or activating something in a way that's not natural.

[00:50:42] It's kind ofrestoring cellular balance and homeostasis. You know, it makes sense in termsof that, you know. Supporting its safety, you know, it's, it's not doingsomething that's unnatural. It's kind of, you know, hoping to restore ormaintain normal cellular function. And that's why it can be so safe. And likeyou said earlier, like [00:51:00] sometimesyou'll, you'll take higher doses and you know, you see, you know, if it worksor not, or, you know, hopefully not have side effects.

[00:51:05] Fortunately, in thecase of astaxanthin, you could take much higher doses and, and there haven'tbeen, uh, side effects that have been demonstrated in clinical studies whereyou, you take this much and then some side effect that thing happens. It's moreof the practicality of how much you want to take. Um, right.

[00:51:19] Like in thatcardiovascular study. In the high dose group, we had eight capsules, you know,so nine, six milligrams and there were no side effects of clinical significancethat were noted. Uh, some people, if they don't fully absorb, you may passthrough and have some colored stool, like if you eat too much, you know, beetsdinner or something.

[00:51:37] Um, but again, likethe

[00:51:38] Luke Storey: most, I once thought I hadcancer.

[00:51:40] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. I'm believe. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:42] Luke Storey: I would, you know, drink a hugebeet juice from the little Yeah. Juice store on the next day. Um, you know,almost ran to the hospital.

[00:51:49] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So thatcan happen to people, make a dose. Um, but even those that do, don'tnecessarily have that happen because if they take it with a meal, because entinis fat soluble, so you wanna [00:52:00] take itwith a meal.

[00:52:01] And so even thoughwe have a water dispersable formulation that gets it nicely dispersed in theaqueous flu to the gut, you still wanna be consuming some fats in a meal thathelp to stimulate the absorption of the fats along with asin, which ultimately hitchesa ride with those. Um, but it's, it's really cool how.

[00:52:18] As works in terms ofit gets absorbed, you know, it goes into the liver and gets packaged in withthe lipoprotein. So like with LDL and HDL and actually hitches a ride on thosethroughout the body. And so that's how it gets to the different organs and tissues.

[00:52:32] Luke Storey: Oh. So it gets shuttled around?

[00:52:33] It

[00:52:33] Dave Wutumull: gets shuttled around, but italso protects them along the way from oxidation, you know, 'cause like the LDLif it becomes oxidized is bad and so it protects the LDL on the way, but thengets delivered, you know, to, you know, the target organs and systemically thatway.

[00:52:48] Luke Storey: Interesting. Do you know of its,um, impact on issues like liposkin? You know, oxidized fats and things likethat.

[00:52:57] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. So like lipid oxidation,like the, [00:53:00] the, the oxidation oflipids. Yeah. We specifically have data like with that collaborator at Harvardshowing that you reduce the oxidation or lipid peroxidation where the lipids inyour cellular membranes, um, become oxidized.

[00:53:11] And, and so that canhappen, like we talked about earlier, with t oxygen or with other, um, freeradicals. Basically the, the lipids, the structure of, of the fatty acids of,of the lipids, uh, say like, you know, D-H-A-E-P, a other fatty acids that comprisethe lipids in your cellular membranes based on their molecular or chemicalstructure.

[00:53:33] They are perfectly,unfortunately, um, these polyunsaturated fatty acids are perfectly designed tobe damaged, you know, by reactive oxygen species. And then the problem is, it'slike a wildfire where you have one lipid, which is like one tree in the forestis that catches fire basically. And then. You know, basically, uh, causesdamage to the next one, which then catches on fire.

[00:53:56] So like in the caseof a lipid that has, [00:54:00] um, beendamaged by a free radical, that free radical stole an electron from that lipid.And now that lipid becomes a radical. And unlike asax andin that can absorbthat punch and, and kind of not become reactive, the lipid becomes reactive. Itbecomes a lipid radical that then, you know, steals an electron from itsneighbor, the next tree, you know, the next lipid.

[00:54:18] And you have thisdomino effect. This cascade like a wildfire of, um, you know, damage to yourlipids in your membrane, which can impact all types of cellular functions. Theintegrity of the cell, the function, the signaling, all these things. Or if it'sat, if it's at the mitochondrial level, the energy production can lead toimpacted cellular cleanup like autophagy or mitophagy of cleanup of themitochondria.

[00:54:40] All of these thingsget impacted if the membranes are disrupted. And so astaxanthin the. Based onits structure, it has these oxygenated groups on the ends of the molecule,these hydroxyl and ketone groups that actually give it polarity. And so thestructure of the cellular membrane, it's a lipid bilar where you have lipidsthat are attached to [00:55:00] these phosphategroups.

[00:55:01] The phosphategroups, um, are polar and kind of like the water that on the inside and outsidethe membrane. The inside the fatty acid tails are, you know, kind of are fatsand, and don't like the water. So you have this, these phosphate kinda outsidesand fatty acid, you know, lipid tails on the inside astaxanthin.

[00:55:20] It's, it's ringgroups on the end of the molecule are oxygenated and polar. And so it anchorsright across the membrane into those phosphate head groups on either inside andoutside the membrane. It kind of locks in perfectly. It's the perfect length, butalso based on the polarity, like locks in and, and stabilizes the membrane.

[00:55:36] And then the, thefatty acids of the lipids align with the Pauline backbone of the astaxanthinmolecule. And so it, it's like this fire, you know, shield, you know, that kindof is perfectly aligned in the membrane along with the lipids and helps to stopthose free radicals or those lipid radicals right in their tracks.

[00:55:54] It. Um, and ratherthan, um, you know, that. Continuing that cascade or that domino effect [00:56:00] of the oxidation of your lipids throughoutthe membrane. So it's other antioxidants like vitamin E or betacarotene canalso get into the membrane, but they don't have those polar head groups toperfectly, uh, anchor across and stabilize the membrane, both physically, butalso chemically, um, uh, you know, against like free radicals, for example.

[00:56:18] Luke Storey: Yeah, that's

[00:56:19] Dave Wutumull: interesting. So it'sinteresting. Very, very different than other

[00:56:21] Luke Storey: I, I ask that because, uh, I tryto avoid pfas whenever possible, but I do really. I, I like to take cod liveroil.

[00:56:29] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:56:29] Luke Storey: You know, for the retinol andwhatnot. And,

[00:56:31] Dave Wutumull: and even brain health, like DHAis important for Yeah. You know, like the fluidity of the membranes in, youknow, so, I mean, they, they have a role.

[00:56:37] It's not, they'renot just good or bad. Yeah. It's just that they are susceptible to oxidationand, and that's, that's why you wanna have the quality source in terms of theproduct

[00:56:45] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:56:45] Dave Wutumull: To make sure it's not oxidizedalready when you get it. But then once it's in your body and is in your cellsand in the membranes, it can be oxidized there as well.

[00:56:52] And that's whereastaxanthin can be perfectly situated to compliment those omega threes, forexample. Yeah. 'cause it can go right into those membranes [00:57:00] and protect them from becoming oxidized.

[00:57:01] Luke Storey: That's so cool. Because I. I havea habit of taking vitamin E anytime. I'll take cod liver oil. Mm-hmm. I don'tgenerally use fish oil, but um, there is one brand, um, body bio that makes areally clean fish oil that's made from, I think it's made from sardines andstuff, you know?

[00:57:16] Mm-hmm. Because I,you know, I do want the DHA and the retinol and things like that, and I'm like,ah, I don't want the pofa, you know? Yeah. So I always make sure there's abrand called, uh, Mito Life that makes a really good clean, um, vitamin E product,so I keep that right next to the cod liver oil, so I always take them together,but this is a really good addition.

[00:57:33] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. And so. Astaxanthin wouldbe better than vitamin E at, uh, preventing that oxidation of the lipids. Butvitamin E is, is still, you know, beneficial. Um, it's just that astaxanthinprobably outperforms it. Um, and so I would definitely add astaxanthin to yourstack if you're taking omega threes.

[00:57:49] Luke Storey: Right.

[00:57:49] Dave Wutumull: Uh, I mean, I think everyoneshould take it regardless, but especially if you're taking omega threes.

[00:57:52] Yeah. Uh, becauseit, those lipid radicals, basically the oxidized lipids, um, you know, can,again, damage the rest of the lipids in [00:58:00]your membrane, but also can trigger a cascade of events that leads toinflammation and chronic inflammation. And, and so totally.

[00:58:07] Luke Storey: I, you can feel that if you, ifyou have a pretty.

[00:58:08] Clean diet and yougo eat, you know, GMO canola oil, you have some fries, you have a binge. Imean,

[00:58:16] Dave Wutumull: yeah,

[00:58:17] Luke Storey: you feel it if you don't do itvery often, so. Mm-hmm. I've actually used vitamin E for that too with this. Ilike that you have the ax three and little pouches 'cause they're very travelfriendly.

[00:58:25] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[00:58:25] Luke Storey: I think that's a good strategy.

[00:58:27] If, you know you'regonna go out and take one for the team and just live your best life and mm-hmm.Eat a bunch of seed oils, it's probably, you know, good to hedge your bets.

[00:58:35] Dave Wutumull: Oh yeah. And even things like,um, the metabolism of, of alcohol, you know, like that can lead to oxidativestress and inflammation and astaxanthin can be in the liver and help tomitigate some of those oxidative stress and inflammatory, you know, effects.

[00:58:50] Um, so there's alltypes of reasons from, you know, uh, diet and other environmental factors whyyou would wanna be taking axin. But I mean, there's great data in terms of, um,not [00:59:00] just how it aligns with themembrane and reduces lipid oxidation and reduces other measures of oxidativestress. Also measures of mitochondrial health, um, like mitochondrial survivalagainst various, um, insults, you know, in, in, um, in various basic researchstudies, uh, increasing, like I said, autophagy, the, the cleanup ofmitochondria, autophagy, the cleanup of, and recycling of components of yourcells.

[00:59:24] MIT agenesis, theproduction of new mitochondria, um, and, and all types of related, um,measures, you know, various reductions in inflammation like. NF Kappa B is amajor inflammatory pathway that a lot of drugs try to target aspects of the NFkappa B pathway, like TNF alpha for example, or Cox two. And, and there's datawith astaxanthin reducing all of these kind of downstream outputs of the NFkappa B pathway, these inflammatory cytokines and mediators.

[00:59:50] And what's sodifferent about astaxanthin is rather than going in after the fact, after theinflammation's already been turned on, like the fire hose is turned on andtrying to like sop up the water and you know, not cause, [01:00:00] you know, damage thereafter, astaxanthinis, uh, helping to prevent the pathological activation of the inflammatorypathway in the first place.

[01:00:08] So it's not turningon when it shouldn't be, but it can still turn on when prompted, you know, byreasons where it's. Supposed to turn on, like in response to, uh, bacteria orviruses, you know, or fun, fungal, you know, types of infections. You know, thereare reasons where you want to have your immune response, you know, to fight offinfections, wound, heal.

[01:00:28] And, and soastaxanthin can prevent the unwanted activation, but not the wanted healthyactivation. Right? Right. So that's why it's so different. Like otheranti-inflammatories sometimes shut down your, you know, immune response, your,your inflammation, which maybe helps your joint. Um, but then now you're atrisk of a severe life-threatening infection if you travel overseas.

[01:00:46] And that's not agood thing.

[01:00:48] Luke Storey: You caught yourself doing somegardening.

[01:00:49] Dave Wutumull: Yeah,

[01:00:50] Luke Storey: it's all over.

[01:00:51] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. Now you're in thehospital. Yeah, so, so it's, um, that's the thing where astaxanthin, again, canreduce inflammation safely. Um, the unwanted chronic inflammation [01:01:00] that inflammaging where you haveinflammation, aging, you know, going hand in hand.

[01:01:03] Yeah,

[01:01:04] Luke Storey: there's, there's a, an issue herein Texas, I don't know if, if you've heard of, called uh, Cedar Fever.

[01:01:10] Dave Wutumull: Hmm.

[01:01:10] Luke Storey: We have these non-native treeshere, this certain kind of cedar tree, and basically they produce this pollenand it's like, it, it's really impacted my wife, uh, terribly, which isunfortunate because it's nice living here otherwise, but there are certaintimes of year and if you, if you go on the, you know, online and look at theallergy load or whatever, it'll be like, some days it'll be like 30,000, youknow, whatever points above the recommended, yada yada.

[01:01:35] Right. And it'slike, she really feels it, the cytokine, the cyto cytokines, it called cytokineStorm.

[01:01:40] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[01:01:41] Luke Storey: And um, it, to, to your point,it's one of those things, I mean, thankfully I don't really get that particularthing. I have my own issues, not that one. But there. Have been years where,um, since we've lived here, where she doesn't like catch it in time.

[01:01:55] Dave Wutumull: Mm.

[01:01:56] Luke Storey: And once it's on, it's like thefire hose, like you said. And it's like you [01:02:00]can take every supplement in the world, you know, and everything from, youknow, the drug store too. And it's like, it's, nothing's gonna stop it.

[01:02:06] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[01:02:06] Luke Storey: It, it's this kind of breakingpoint, this threshold. And then you just have to either leave the state, youknow, quickly.

[01:02:13] Or let it wind downkind of on its own. I mean, I'm sure the, you know, the things, supplements andthings you can take help the symptoms, but it, it doesn't seem like the kind ofthing where you're just like, oh, I'm, I got the cytokine storm. I'm feelingthat I'll just take a pill and turn it off. It doesn't seem to work that way.

[01:02:28] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. A lot of things are goingin downstream at too late, and so you want to kind of work upstream and, andmodulate that pathway and turn it down because it's, it's there for a reason.It's sensing danger. And so in your wife's case, it's sensing, you know, uh,like a, a toxin. It has to, you know, get rid of it.

[01:02:42] And so it's, it's reyou know, like the, the first responders are there to, to fight, you know, and,and, and protect, you know, the system. And they're not realizing that, youknow, they're kind of over responding, you know, because they're going in and,you know, like if you have bacteria in, in your cells, you know, the, theimmune cells come in and actually create their [01:03:00]own like reactive oxygen species as like little, you know, kind of like.

[01:03:04] Bombs to go off, youknow, to kind of, or like bleach or things to basically like clean the wallsor, or tear down, you know, sell their walls and kind of, and then rebuild, youknow, later because they're infected, you know? But if that's, sometimes that'sway overkill. And, and, and it stays on like the, it doesn't resolve and turnoff.

[01:03:21] And so you just havethese, you know, kind of wrecking crews coming in and trying to tear downthings that they think are maybe, you know, infected or whatever, but it'slike, that's not the appropriate response, you know? And so that's anoveractive immune system. And that cytokine storm is something that hashappened in like in your wife's case, but also like with long COVID people havea cytokine storm and have.

[01:03:40] Overactive immuneresponse, um, that then is, you know, meant to help you in the first place, butthen it, it causes more damage in, in the long run when it stays activated. Uh,and so that's why you want a healthy, functioning immune system.

[01:03:52] Luke Storey: So it's like, um, say you'rehaving issues with allergies and you would take an antihistamine, you'realready too late.[01:04:00]

[01:04:00] Right? Yeah. Becausethe histamine's already going crazy. Yeah. It sounds like astaxanthin would bemore of like a pre histamine,

[01:04:05] Dave Wutumull: kind of an upstream Yeah.Hoping to prevent your system from overreacting, um, when it, you know, when itshouldn't. Um, so yes, that's really, that's cool.

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[01:06:03] 'cause I helppromote so many great brands.

[01:06:05] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[01:06:05] Luke Storey: Which I'm happy to do. Um, and Ithink, oh man, you know, when am I gonna find my thing? And it's like,

[01:06:10] Dave Wutumull: yeah.

[01:06:11] Luke Storey: From this conversation, I'm like,man, dude discovered something that does so many different things, right? It's,it's not,

[01:06:17] Dave Wutumull: it's a blessing and a curse. Itmakes it hard to, you know, kind of, uh, create awareness for it.

[01:06:22] 'cause it does allthese things and people think, oh, well it can't possibly be real if it doesall these things. But when you look back at how it works, it's like, okay, itgets distributed, distributed throughout the whole body. Just naturally. It getsto your liver, your heart, your brain, your joints, your muscles, all theseplaces, your skin, your eyes, and then gets into.

[01:06:38] All of the membranesof the, of the cells, the outer membrane, the nuclear membrane, themitochondrial membrane, and, and other membranes of other organelles in thecells. And so all of these things are susceptible to oxidative stress,inflammation. And then if those things go out of whack, then it can manifestitself as, you know, an issue in your muscles or your joint, or your brain oryour heart.

[01:06:57] And people think ofthese as these unrelated [01:07:00] disorders,and then they go after them with different, you know, supplements or drugs and,you know, but that's, you know, after the fact that you're, you're dealing witha symptom and you're not dealing with the root cause, which, you know, at thecellular level is fundamentally related in a lot of these cases to this chronicinflammation, oxidative stress, uh, that's happening.

[01:07:17] And it just happensto kind of burst, you know, in one of the locations that maybe is moresusceptible like a certain joint or the brain, or the heart, whatever it may bein your particular, uh, case. Um, and so that's why it can have all thesebenefits because it's helping things to function normally. That manifeststhemselves in different ways, in different people if they're not functioningnormally.

[01:07:37] Luke Storey: So from your, um. Position as acompany, it's like a blessing to have something that's so multifaceted, butalso kind of a limitation because who's gonna believe something doesn't

[01:07:47] Dave Wutumull: look like? Yeah. And also it'slike, you know, a lot of companies, you know, try to have like a targetcustomer and it's, it works for this demographic and, and it's, you know, uses,you know, use you using it for this particular application, you know, but it'slike, it, it benefits, [01:08:00] you know,lifespan, you know, how long you live.

[01:08:03] But also the healthspan, the quality of those years. Like with heart health, um, you know, we'vedone studies showing in animals that reduces the plaque buildup in the arteriesand in humans reductions of cholesterol and oxide, LDL and blood pressure. Inhumans. Uh, there's also cognitive benefits, like increased memory andinformation processing and attention and recall and all these, uh, benefits.

[01:08:23] And then in animalslike neurogenesis, the growth of new brain cells and neuroplasticity. Um, and,and so young and old, there's studies, like I mentioned, the children withdigital eye strain. There's studies in older people with, um, immune health issuesand, and joint issues showing benefits there. There's, uh, people that are kindof, um, young adults or middle aged looking at athletic performance in youngcyclists.

[01:08:46] You know, cycling ata VO two max of like 75% of that VO two max, looking at time to exhaustion andfinding out that if you took astaxanthin you could go like 20%, you know,further before exhaustion compared [01:09:00]to the placebo group, you know, so that was a big what benefit. So like, it waslike an hour, 12 minutes in the placebo group, an hour, 25 minutes in thetreated group, um, in, in young competitive cyclists.

[01:09:09] So, you know,benefits in endurance and muscle recovery. Um, and. You know, uh, you know,liver health, skin health, eye health. So it's not easy to say, okay, let'starget this one customer, this one age, this one use, and just, you know, kindof market around that. And so really it's an educational process for us to justYeah.

[01:09:28] Talk about it.Different people, you know, have different, um, health, you know, situationsand, and we'll find interest in for different,

[01:09:34] Luke Storey: I I have a business idea for you.

[01:09:35] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[01:09:36] Luke Storey: You just have a mother company.Yeah. Uh, a X three, right? And then you have. A nootropic product and a jointjoint pain. Right?

[01:09:43] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, yeah.

[01:09:44] Luke Storey: Right. An eye product. And it'slike just all the same thing. It's the same, yeah. With a different label onit. Yeah. So you can, you know, help people address those issues.

[01:09:51] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. No, I mean that's, Imean, that definitely has been considered and, and, but then you can. You canalso find like in the case of eye health, other ingredients like lutein andzeaxanthin, [01:10:00] and maybe that'll be agreat eye health version.

[01:10:02] Yeah. And maybethere's other, uh, versions for, uh, whatever application that would make senseas well. Um, and so, uh, there's other longevity agents that are reallyinteresting and, and um, and it's probably not a one, you know, solution typeof a thing either. It's probably a combination of things that ultimately canbenefit a lot of people.

[01:10:19] We just think thisshould be part of the foundational stack for, for virtually anyone.

[01:10:23] Luke Storey: Well, I'm glad it's, I've beenreminded of it 'cause it, I haven't taken ses Anthony in a few years. You know,you kind of just go through phases of trends and it's not that I everintentionally stopped taking it, it's just my cupboards have been overflowing.

[01:10:37] It's like, stopbuying supplements Luke. Uh, for those that. Want to fill their cupboards. Uh,we've got a discount code for you if you wanna check out a X three. And that'sluke story.com/ax three. And, uh, there's a code called Luke that gets you 20% off.And we'll put that in the show notes too. Um, let's talk about some of theother algaes.

[01:10:59] I've done a [01:11:00] few shows on, uh, spirulina and chlorella,and actually I did do a show that included this, um, uh, Marine phytoplankton.

[01:11:09] Dave Wutumull: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:10] Luke Storey: There's a company called, um,activation, activation Products, I think they're called. Um, and it's like aliquid and it's, they grow it in Spain and some, you know, lab cauldron, right.

[01:11:22] So it's protectedfrom the elements and things like that. And then, um, and then, uh, the, uh,what's my favorite company that makes the freaking Jared? What's the companythat makes the, um, the, um, freaking chlorella and, um, spirulina that I eatevery day that I can't think of? Energy bits. Yes, that's right. Oh yeah.

[01:11:41] 'cause they're, theymake 'em in little tabs, you know? Um, so I've found clean sources of those. Ienjoy them. Did enough research to go, yeah, this is really good for me. I feelgood when I'm on them, et cetera. And I'm not someone that really likes vegetables.I don't get a lot of green stuff in me. I figured those are probably goodsources of concentrated green stuff [01:12:00]that's better for you than trying to eat, you know, two pounds of, uh, lettuceor something.

[01:12:04] What's thedifference between astaxanthin and some of those other alga that also have somereally promising research behind them too?

[01:12:13] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, so the type of algae, orspecifically microalgae, so it's not like the visible. Algae that people willsee out in the water. It's, it's microalgae microscopic algae.

[01:12:22] Um, it's calledhemato, Occus plu. And, and this is that algae that starts off like green butturns red when it produces astaxanthin. Um, and so those other, um, microalgaesthat you're referencing or algaes, um, they just, they don't produce the astaxanthin.So they're, they're, they have different types of molecules that are containedin their algal content that have various health benefits.

[01:12:44] But in terms ofastaxanthin itself, it's only produced by this type of microalgae. Okay. Thereare some other sources like, um, you know, some yeast and, and bacteria andthings that can produce ashin technically, but the, the hemato [01:13:00] occus ssis the most, um, prominent kind ofhigh producing, high yielding form of ashin in nature.

[01:13:05] And then it worksits way up the food chain. And so. You'll find it in, in plankton and krill andshrimp and crab and lobster and, uh, salmon and whales and, and, but becauseit's part of their diet, even flamingos are pink because of the crustaceans. Ohno

[01:13:20] Luke Storey: way

[01:13:20] Dave Wutumull: consume

[01:13:20] Luke Storey: Is that, is the astaxanthin whatmakes krill oil like a deep red color?

[01:13:25] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. Yeah. So that's Oh,interesting. That's, yeah, exactly. And so the astaxanthin content in krillthough is, is, uh, quite low. It's, it's typically micrograms, um, in a typicaldose of krill oil versus milligrams in our case. Um, so you, unless it's likespiked, you know, or add, you know, if astaxanthin is added to the krill oil,but if you just kind of have a normal krill oil extract, um, they'll, it'llhave other benefits, other, um, you know, molecules of, of health benefit.

[01:13:51] But the actualastaxanthin content is, is much lower

[01:13:55] Luke Storey: subclinical dose.

[01:13:56] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. Yeah. So you'd stillwanna take additional astaxanthin in addition to [01:14:00]aclo oil.

[01:14:00] Luke Storey: Alright, I got a question foryou. So, uh, you know, immediately when I got your, um, product. When I openedit, I was expecting the, uh, you know, the red oil, right?

[01:14:10] And then I was like,oh, it's a little white pill. And I thought, this looks tiny. I mean, it saysto take one for three months and see how you feel. I think something like thaton the, on the package. I'm like, one of these, what's this gonna do? But becauseI take so many capsules, I just don't like eating a hundred, you know, gelatincapsules a day.

[01:14:26] I don't know why.It's just, I think if I can avoid it, so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feellike when I opened one of yours, I put it in one of my little weird drinks.Mm-hmm. And I think it was white when I poured it out and then turned red. Am Iimagining that?

[01:14:39] Dave Wutumull: No. Yeah. So it's a mixture ofdark and light powder in the capsule, but it is water dispersable given thatformulation that we talked about.

[01:14:46] And so, unlike theoil suspension in the softgels with the other shin products, you couldn't. Youknow, open up those capsules, first of all, 'cause they're soft gels. But evenif you punctured those soft gels and tried to squeeze out the oil, you know,oil and water don't mix. And, and [01:15:00]so, uh, maybe you could squeeze the oil into some type of food and eat it thatway.

[01:15:04] But in our case,it's a water dispersable formulation, and so you can put it into water or someother type of shake or, or beverage or, um, you know, something, soft food,yogurt, whatever. And yeah, but say in the case of water, if you put it in, uh,it'll turn bright, deep red, you know, it's almost like a, a Kool-Aid.

[01:15:22] Um, and, and so, uh,but it won't taste or smell like anything. It doesn't have like a fishy smellor, or active aftertaste.

[01:15:29] Luke Storey: That's kinda what I was testingfor.

[01:15:30] Dave Wutumull: It's strange, right? Becausethis should taste like something or smell like something. But no, it, itdoesn't, it's just bright red.

[01:15:36] Luke Storey: That's cool. So

[01:15:37] Dave Wutumull: just be careful if, you know,you don't wanna spill it.

[01:15:39] Luke Storey: Is there any loss in absorptionif one was to take it without the capsule or does it, does it not matter?

[01:15:45] Dave Wutumull: We haven't technically testedthat in like, in a human study. Um, but. It shouldn't theoretically because thecapsules are dissolved, you know, and disperse the powder in the gut prettyrapidly. They're not like, it's not inter

[01:15:58] Luke Storey: coded

[01:15:58] Dave Wutumull: or something.

[01:15:59] Yeah, it's intercoded. And [01:16:00] actually in that initialhemo study, we actually tested both in inter coated and, you know, standard.Both were vegan capsules, um, but one was inter coated to kind of get itthrough the gut into the upper intestine. And there was virtually no differencein absorption between the inter coated and the normal that release it in, inthe gut, in the stomach.

[01:16:17] Um, and so thereforeif you were taking it in a drink form, it's, you know, it's maybe a matter of afew minutes difference before the capsule dissolves and releases the powder.So, uh, it probably wouldn't have a difference, although we haven't specificallytested that. Got it.

[01:16:31] Luke Storey: Okay. Uh, in terms of dosing, asI said, I was like, ah, this seems kind of small.

[01:16:36] I mean, I know it's12 milligrams. Yeah. Uh, which is, you know, kind of the standard dose for thisparticular, um, class of product. You mentioned earlier how in one of thestudies, um, the participants were given, you know, 90 milligrams and there wasno, uh, discernible side effects. Is there any evidence to support that, youknow, taking.

[01:16:57] Four of 'em a day orsix [01:17:00] has any added benefit or isthere kind of a law of diminishing returns? 'cause I'm, I'm someone whoapparently just likes to waste money. Yeah.

[01:17:07] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. I mean

[01:17:07] Luke Storey: if, because the way I look at itis like, okay, if 12 milligrams is good for me, then taking a hundred must bethat many times better.

[01:17:14] But I thinksometimes I'm probably, you know, just wasting, uh, products because you canonly absorb so much or

[01:17:21] Dave Wutumull: mm-hmm.

[01:17:21] Luke Storey: Or things like that.

[01:17:22] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. So often that is the casewith a lot of things that you get to a plateau of absorption or even justefficacy based on, um, on what it's doing, you know, at the cellular level.

[01:17:31] But in the case ofastaxanthin, it is dose dependent in both animal and human studies. Uh,typically. If you give more, you get more efficacy. And given that it hasexceptional safety, you're not limited to a certain window where you go abovethat and now you're, you know, introducing side effects. It's more of apracticality and a cost consideration.

[01:17:50] And, and so the 12milligrams is kind of a good baseline dose. We, we say, you know, maybe taketwo a day just to kind of, you know, have a little more, uh, support. Um, butkind of that [01:18:00] one to two capsules aday is probably a good baseline dose. And when we looked at the blood levels inthe mice in that N-I-H-I-T-P-E longevity study and looked at what type oflevels of entin they had from their diet and then compared that to our human studies,something in that range of one to do capsules probably gets you a similar bloodlevel.

[01:18:19] Um, and so for basiclongevity, you know, long-term support. That's probably a good starting point,but like we, we talked about in the cardiovascular study, we did eight of the12 milligram capsules, so 96 milligrams, and that was where we had the bestresults as compared to 24 milligrams as the low dose in that study.

[01:18:36] Um, and thenanecdotally, a lot of, um, people in our community report increased benefits atfour capsules or six cap capsules or, or more. Some people are, are mega, youknow, power users. Like my father takes in the, on the order of 12 to 16capsules a day and, and he's in his, um, you know, kind of mid to lateseventies and, and plays, you know, tennis singles in the sun, in Hawaii and,and is, you know, [01:19:00] mobile and, and soit's helped him and his buddies at those higher levels.

[01:19:03] Um, and so that's,that's not a, a dose that we. Would promote directly to people, but you know,there are people taking a range of doses. Well, he

[01:19:10] Luke Storey: probably gets it for free, I'massuming.

[01:19:12] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, yeah. He has access tothe source. So how

[01:19:15] Luke Storey: much do you take? 'cause I mean,

[01:19:16] Dave Wutumull: I take like two to four a day.Okay. Um, and just depends, like, two would be like a baseline dose and then ifI'm traveling or, you know, strenuous activities and I, I might bump it up tofour or more a day.

[01:19:26] Um, but um, yeah,it's just easier to pop to at once and I just don't really do that. Um, andtake it with, with a meal.

[01:19:32] Luke Storey: Um, I'm gonna do an a x three,uh, experiment next time I fly. Mm-hmm. And just take like 10 before I get on aplane and see, see if I can trace the impact. 'cause that mm-hmm. To me, flyingis the ultimate testing ground.

[01:19:44] 'cause it happens tobe the thing that just smokes me more than anything. So I really notice if Itake something and I don't take something, and over the years I've put togetherall these little different stacks. Um, you know, every time I find somethingthat works. But I, it's, as I said, it's been a long time since [01:20:00] I've tried astaxanthin.

[01:20:01] I don't think I evertook more than one

[01:20:02] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[01:20:03] Luke Storey: Of the 12 milligram oil. Andthose

[01:20:04] Dave Wutumull: weren't even absorbed as well.Yeah,

[01:20:06] Luke Storey: exactly.

[01:20:06] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. So I, you know, again,take it with a meal and it takes a few hours to be absorbed and the maximumconcentration is probably in that six to nine hour timeframe. And so you mightwanna, like what if you have your last meal before Yeah.

[01:20:19] Driving to theairport or whatever, maybe, you know, can get,

[01:20:22] Luke Storey: so don't take it like when youget on the plane, you, you, you just, you miss

[01:20:24] Dave Wutumull: the

[01:20:24] Luke Storey: wind,

[01:20:25] Dave Wutumull: I think depend, yeah. I mean,you still have some oxidative stress, inflammation that's probably ramped uppost flight and so probably would help with that. But I, I think, again, wehaven't, you know, tested this, but it would make sense to, you know, giveyourselves, uh, your a few hours, you know, head start with a meal, um, and,and then hopefully by the time you're actually taking off it, it's, you know,into the system and starting to be absorbed.

[01:20:46] So maybe in that.You know, four to six hour, or even six to nine hour, depending on how long theflight is. Yeah, yeah. A couple hours. Versus if it's a long likeinternational,

[01:20:53] Luke Storey: well, you live in Hawaii, everyflight's long.

[01:20:55] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, I know. Well, not innerisland.

[01:20:57] Luke Storey: Yeah, island hopping maybe.

[01:20:59] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, [01:21:00]like basically you go up and then they serve juice and you're back down and

[01:21:02] Luke Storey: again.

[01:21:02] I remember that.That's one cool thing about Hawaii. I, oh man, we gotta go to this otherisland. It's like a 10 minute flight or

[01:21:08] Dave Wutumull: something. Yeah, yeah. Prettymuch. It feels like that. At least 10 minutes at At elevation. Yeah. Yeah. Itmight be half an hour total. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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[01:22:55] Luke Storey: uh, one thing I wanted to askabout, which you, you, you mentioned just kind of in [01:23:00]passing was, um, things like joint pain, joint inflammation, and things likethat.

[01:23:04] What, what do wehave, uh, you know, in the, in the. Can as far as any data on that?

[01:23:10] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, so we can't specificallymarket for pain just because that's a disease area for drugs. But, uh,anecdotally a lot of people do report improved, you know, joint comfort andmobility. Um, and in terms of data, there are human studies like in older adultsthat actually had rheumatoid arthritis and they were looking at various, uh,clinical measurements and, and questionnaires and things.

[01:23:30] And there wereimprovements, uh, in that population, um, as a support, you know, um, but notas like a replacement for therapy, but as a additional support. Um, there'salso data in animals looking at osteoarthritis where they had an experimentalmodel where they induced osteoarthritis in, in a rabbit, and it, um, there wasreductions in the cartilage damage, uh, in, in.

[01:23:52] With astaxanthindosing. Um, there's also mechanistic data where astaxanthin reduces TNF alphaand other [01:24:00] inflammatory cytokinesthat are often targeted by, um, you know, drugs or other agents that areintended for arthritis or other joint conditions. And so a lot of the majorrheumatoid arthritis drugs go TNF alpha, uh, some pain relievers and thingsused for joints went after Cox two in the past.

[01:24:17] Um, and, and soAshin. Has data showing reductions in those inflammatory biomarkers, and weknow it's distributed throughout the body and can help with, with joints in, inthat way. So, and again, anecdotally, that's one of the biggest reasons thatpeople, you know, report back to us that, oh, I, I feel so much better.

[01:24:34] You know, hips,knees. So I think it's from a kind of a joint health, joint support. Mm-hmm.Mobility, comfort. It definitely has a lot of good data there, bothmechanistically and then real world applications.

[01:24:45] Luke Storey: What about, uh, giving it topets? I'm thinking about my, my dogs getting older. Yeah. Which is, I justdread, you know, so obsessed with my dog.

[01:24:54] But, um, I give herall kinds of supplements and, you know, over the years I've learned [01:25:00] what her gut tolerates. I'll give her alittle bit of Sheila GT or beam minerals, like the fulvic minerals. Um,spirulina, chlorella sometimes, and tiny doses. Um. I is astaxanthin known tobe safe for animals. And is there any kind of like dosing precaution there?

[01:25:16] Like could I justput a whole capsule in my dog's food and

[01:25:19] Dave Wutumull: you could Yeah.

[01:25:20] Luke Storey: And not see a reaction?

[01:25:21] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. So there's been studiesin, in, um, limited studies in cats, but there's actually some immune healthbenefits in, in cats. And then in dogs there was a bit more research, not, nota ton of research, but there, there are various studies supporting dog health,uh, canine health.

[01:25:34] And, um, and thenanecdotally I also have, uh, you know, two dogs and, and, um, we can take acapsule and just put it. You know, in a pill pocket or in like a little bit oflike, we'll take like Okinawa and Sweet Potato and kind of use that as anatural pill pocket and just put that in or peanut butter and they love it.

[01:25:50] Um, and that's justa full capsule. You could also open up the capsule and, you know, disperse aorbit or half it out or something if you want. I'm gonna do that. That's cool.I'm, you may get some coloration of stool though, [01:26:00]so don't be, uh, if you see some red, you know, dog poop, uh, don't, don't betoo concerned.

[01:26:04] Yeah, they don'tactually, humans absorb, uh, astaxanthin and retinoids much better than, thanother animals. Um, you know, canines and, you know, rodents. They, they just,for whatever reason, don't absorb retinoids as, as well as humans. Got it. Um,so you may see some that passes through. Makes

[01:26:19] Luke Storey: sense. And it's probably not partof their natural diet, you know?

[01:26:21] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. I mean, if they're,unless they're eating salmon, I guess. Right.

[01:26:24] Luke Storey: Oh, that's what I wanted to askyou in terms of getting, uh, you know, a clinically effective dose. What, howmuch salmon would someone have to eat? I'm sure it varies by where those salmonlive and how much, uh, you know, ashin they have in their diet.

[01:26:40] But is is, is itpossible to get a meaningful amount by just eating a lot of salmon?

[01:26:45] Dave Wutumull: If you were to eat, you know, agood portion of wild caught like sockeye salmon every day, you would get, um,several milligrams of, of astaxanthin a day. But to get 12 milligrams, it wouldhave to be closer to like a pound of sockeye salmon.

[01:26:59] So [01:27:00] that'd be a pretty good serving. Yeah.Every day. That's week. And if it's like Atlantic salmon, you know, which isnot that deep red that you see of the, of the sockeye, uh, it's, it's muchlower levels. And, and so you would have to eat like four to five pounds. And,and so it's, it's a lot that you'd have to consume.

[01:27:15] Um, you, it stillgives you some ASEs anthem, which, which is good. Um, but yeah, to get thetypes of levels we're delivering, it's, it's not really feasible to eat thatmuch salmon.

[01:27:24] Luke Storey: Is it true that, uh, salmon farmsfeed the salmon ashin to turn them red?

[01:27:30] Dave Wutumull: It is. Yeah. And so a lot ofpeople think they're just artificially dyed pink and they give them some, youknow, just red dye or pink dye.

[01:27:37] No, but theyactually feed them astaxanthin in their, in their diet. And so yeah, it givesthem their color. But, uh, so other, so otherwise they would be gray. Um, butthey would be smaller and weaker and, and more, you know, kind of sick, youknow, if, if they didn't havein in their diet. So it allows them to be healthyand, and grow and reproduce, uh, but then gives them the coloration that'sneeded for just.

[01:27:58] Marketability. Yeah.[01:28:00] Like, sound like great family.Nobody wants a great family. Yeah.

[01:28:03] Luke Storey: That's funny, man. Cool. Well,I'm, I'm excited to, um, I'm excited to learn more and it, it's a greatrediscovery for me too. As I said, you know, I just, sometimes something worksand I, I like it. I just forget about it. So,

[01:28:17] Dave Wutumull: yeah.

[01:28:17] Luke Storey: You know, this is, um, a reallygreat reintroduction and I'm glad that you've upleveled the, you know,absorption and also made it so that one doesn't have to eat a bunch of poof asif they want to get their asses thin, which, you know, many people really avoidthem.

[01:28:31] Dave Wutumull: Yeah,

[01:28:32] Luke Storey: I'm sure it's smart. Many of ushave probably a little neurotic about it too, you know, when it comes to takinga little gel cap of something with some pufa, you know?

[01:28:41] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, yeah.

[01:28:41] Luke Storey: But, you know, anyway, you hedgeyour bets wherever you can. Mm-hmm. Uh, my final question for you, sir, isthis, uh, who have been three teachers or teachings in general that haveimpacted you in your life?

[01:28:54] Dave Wutumull: Hmm. Interesting. I, I'veworked with my father for many years, [01:29:00]um, and so I would say he is, is one of those, um, we have a great relationshipand, and, um, has been kind of like a colleague, collaborator, mentor, all, allof those things.

[01:29:09] Um, I think, youknow, if I can say kind of the universe, the world, just life experience, youknow, just, um, that is a great teacher, uh, and impacts, you know, you in alot of ways that, um, you know, if you are looking at it in the right ways, Ithink can teach you a lot, um, in terms of being present and, and recognizingthat you're in the right place and, and you know that this is as it should be.

[01:29:34] Um, and then I wouldprobably say my dogs, because, you know, they are just their. Pure joy andhappiness and, and just, they're such pure innocent souls that I think they canteach you. Like, you know, you can kind of get lost in life and, and they canjust remind you like what it's all about.

[01:29:51] Luke Storey: Teach you how to be human.

[01:29:53] Dave Wutumull: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[01:29:54] Luke Storey: It's, it's funny, before I, thisis the only dog I've ever had, and I used to, I mean, I used to say these wordsand it's [01:30:00] crazy to even say them, soI'm gonna tell the universe I don't mean it, but I used to say all the time,like, I hate dogs. Like, if they tried to get near me, it just like was smellyslobbery.

[01:30:08] Dave Wutumull: Yeah.

[01:30:09] Luke Storey: I was also attacked prettyviolently throughout my life at different times by dogs. So I had, you know, Ihad a good reason for the prejudice, but it's so funny now just thinking backon how, how many years I robbed myself of such a beautiful experience. They'resuch special creatures. I mean, I love all animals, but dogs in particular arejust.

[01:30:27] My dog brings me somuch joy just from just breathing, just, you know, just looking at her. I feelhappy when she does something super cute, like runs up and gives me a hug onmy, on my, um, what do you call the shins? Slips to hug my shins when I get home.I mean, it's just like, oh my God.

[01:30:44] Dave Wutumull: Yeah. It's like the camerarolls all dog photos basically.

[01:30:46] Luke Storey: Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, howdo people not have a dog? You know? Yeah. And how did I not have one for allthose years? So.

[01:30:53] Dave Wutumull: Mm-hmm.

[01:30:53] Luke Storey: I'm with you on that one. I mean,dog spelled backward. You know what they say?

[01:30:57] Dave Wutumull: There you go.

[01:30:58] Luke Storey: All right, man. Well, thank youso much for making the [01:31:00] time to comesee me here in Austin, Texas, and thank you for making a really clean andeffective product.

[01:31:05] You know, the marketand the supplement space is so oversaturated and a lot of stuff out there justisn't worth spending your time and money on. So when someone comes along andthey're doing it right and they've got some research to back it up, uh, I findthat real exciting. So thank you for your commitment to excellence and tohelping humanity be healthier.

[01:31:23] Dave Wutumull: Oh, thanks for having me.

[01:31:28] Luke Storey: All right, family. Thanks fortuning into the Life stylist and making me part of your day. Now for a quickreality check. If social media pulled the plug on me tomorrow, how would westay connected? I've been battling the Chinese Communist Party for years asthey keep banning me on TikTok, and you never know how the tide might shiftwith Instagram or YouTube.

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