440. Why Muscles Matter: The Truth About Essential Amino Acids & Protein w/ Kion’s Angelo Keely

Angelo Keely

DISCLAIMER: This podcast is presented for educational and exploratory purposes only. Published content is not intended to be used for diagnosing or treating any illness. Those responsible for this show disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information presented by Luke or his guests. Please consult with your healthcare provider before using any products referenced. This podcast may contain paid endorsements for products or services.

Angelo Keely joins the show today for our first real deep dive into essential amino acids (all nine of them) and their critical role in our body’s health and longevity. Angelo really knows his stuff, so we get granular on all things protein – why lean muscle is the most important thing you can take with you into your later years.

  • Shop Kion supplements, coffee, proteins, and more at lukestorey.com/kion to get up to 40% off.
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DISCLAIMER: This podcast is presented for educational and exploratory purposes only. Published content is not intended to be used for diagnosing or treating any illness. Those responsible for this show disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information presented by Luke or his guests. Please consult with your healthcare provider before using any products referenced. This podcast may contain paid endorsements for products or services.

Angelo Keely joins the show today for our first real deep dive into essential amino acids (all nine of them) and their critical role in our body’s health and longevity. Angelo really knows his stuff, so we get granular on all things protein – why lean muscle is the most important thing you can take with you into your later years, plant protein vs. animal protein, and specific diet and supplementation practices to help you get the most out of life.

I won’t spoil too much detail, but Angelo is also gracious to share two absolutely mind blowing stories from earlier in his life – the first, a scary, violent, traumatic LSD experience. The second, a deadly bus crash in India, set him on the path he walks today.

We spend the back half of the conversation getting into the inspiration behind his supplement brand, Kion – how the health and wellness space leaves room for sketchy claims and ingredients, and how committed he is to putting out a clean product. You can shop Kion’s incredible supplements, coffee, proteins, and more at lukestorey.com/kion to get up to 40% off.

00:06:05 — Meeting Angelo Keely
  • Angelo’s upbringing and parents 
  • Home birth, no school, raw foods
  • Burgeoning rebelion 
  • Violent fallout from overdosing on LSD
  • Beginning a new life and perspective 
  • Acupuncture and talk therapy to integrate the experience 
  • Understanding a new expanded context for psychedelics
  • Experimenting again – but with caution
  • Taking control of his own health journey
00:31:56 — Healing & Mindfulness Methodologies 
00:50:00 — Starting Kion & Making Supplements 
01:11:33 — Essential Amino Acids 
  • Kion Essential Amino Acids 
  • Protein 101 
  • Proteins you are vs. proteins you eat
  • Cases for supplementation 
  • Luke’s workout regimen 
  • LiveO2 Oxygen Training 
  • Importance of maintaining lean muscle as you age 
  • Plant protein vs. animal protein 
  • Amino acids and kidney health
01:35:41 — What Makes Kion Aminos Different?

More about this episode.

Watch on YouTube.

Angelo Keely: [00:00:07] People often ask me like, "Well, how did you start this?" Or, "Why?" It's one of the most important supplements I remember my mom giving to me and her telling me like, "Angie, can't you feel it?" It's so amazing. And so if my life is my dream and I was going to dream up, what would be the perfect company that would make three-year-old Angie's mom happy, it would be an amino acid company. 

The supplements that we make and the ethos of what we do was something that I was raised in that was highly important to me, that remained really important to me, that then became this more highly emphasized part of my life. Hi, I'm Angelo Keely and you're listening to the Life Stylist Podcast with Luke Storey.

Luke Storey: [00:00:52] Welcome back to all the OG listeners and those who are new to the Life Stylist Podcast. Show notes, links, and complete written transcripts for this one are located at lukestorey.com/angelo. 

Here are a few things you're going to learn by tuning in to today's episode. Our guest harrowing near-death LSD experience; the value of PTSD recovery tools like acupuncture, meditation, yoga, and therapy; why essential amino acids are critical to health and longevity; how consumers can know if the aminos they take are legit; dissecting the fitness craze of branched-chain amino acids; the role amino acids play in muscle protein synthesis and fat loss; amino acids powerful effect on neurotransmitters, mood, and sleep; the benefits of drinking bone broth and gelatin; why protein synthesis and lean muscle retention are so important, especially as we age; and how women can pack on lean muscle without getting too ripped; and the truth about how much protein we actually need each day and why so many are confused about this issue; and how ironically, eating more protein helps us be less fat; and the incredible benefits of grass-fed whey protein and how to avoid inferior protein powders; why plant -based protein powders are so brutal on some people's digestion; and the risks of hemp protein heavy metal toxicity. Plus, we learn some marketing trickery in the protein powder market, such as grass-fed and organic labeling. 

We also talk about what's behind the collagen protein craze; the benefits of creatine and why it's not just for gym pros; what you need to know about natural flavors in the supplements you take; and we also find out if mold is really a big issue with coffee and why organic and single origin is so important when choosing your beans. And as we discuss coffee beans, we also talk about the benefits of freshly ground beans versus pre-ground. And finally, you'll learn about my favorite sleep supplement and why it works so well.

This, my friends, is Episode 440 featuring Angelo Keely. He's the co-founder and CEO of Kion, a supplement and functional food company dedicated to helping health and fitness enthusiasts like you and me live long, fun, active lives by providing clean energy-enhancing solutions. 

And I'll let you know right now if you're feeling Angelo's vibe in this conversation and you want to explore his company, Kion, you can visit them at lukestorey.com/kion. And you'll get up to 40% off their incredible coffee and supplements. That's lukestorey.com/kion, K-I-O-N.
All right, let's get ready to rumble with Angelo Keely on The Life Stylist Podcast. Angelo Keely, what's happening, brother? Here we are.

Angelo Keely: [00:03:36] Luke Storey, hello.

Luke Storey: [00:03:37] We're doing the damn thing.

Angelo Keely: [00:03:38] I'm here. Happy to be here.

Luke Storey: [00:03:39] You're in OG Austin. You're from where we are recording where so many of us Texaphonians have migrated to. I coined that phrase, by the way. So if you hear it later on in life, this is where it started.

Angelo Keely: [00:03:51] I'll say Trademark Luke Storey.

Luke Storey: [00:03:52] Yeah, totally.

Angelo Keely: [00:03:53] Yeah, I'm from here.

Luke Storey: [00:03:55] What was it like growing up here?

Angelo Keely: [00:03:57] It was wonderful. It was really nice. It was really hot. I remember I grew up in a house without AC, a funky old house. So I would just sleep in my underwear underneath the fan, the ceiling fan with no sheets on. But it was good, man. It was smaller. There weren't quite as many people. But literally, my entire life people were always saying like, "Oh, Austin's not the same, everyone's moving here. It's not the same as it used to be." So I feel like that story is 40 years old.

Luke Storey: [00:04:25] I think that's true of any mid-size city. I guess we're not in a mid-sized city anymore, but any kind of big town or city that kind of catches on or has something unique to offer, I think that's quite common. Man, everyone's moving here. It's like, "Well, do you want an economy or not?"

Angelo Keely: [00:04:42] Yeah, it's because life is good. That's why people, they're moving from somewhere else where there's less opportunity.

Luke Storey: [00:04:48] Yeah. Don't make your city cool if you don't want people-- just more crime. Just make it suck and we won't come. It's why everyone fled on. Everyone I know practically has fled cities like LA and New York. It's just you want to live somewhere safe and relatively clean where you can do your thing in peace.

Angelo Keely: [00:05:07] Austin's still nice.  I stayed in town last night and then drove out to your place, which supposedly when I was a kid, this was far away. It's like 30-minute drive. So still people complain about the traffic. It's still like nothing. It's such a pleasant place here.

Luke Storey: [00:05:23] It is. Yeah. The traffic thing is funny when I hear people here complain about it, and I'm sure compared to 20 years ago or something there is, but I always think, have you ever been on the 405 at 6 PM on a Friday? It takes you an hour to get a mile. So I'm like, yeah. But I enjoy it out here. We went on a great hike last time you were here at the Green Belt near my neighborhood, and I'm just like, "This is awesome, man." It's a really beautiful place.

Angelo Keely: [00:05:53] Yeah, that was a beautiful hike. That's a sweet little spot.

Luke Storey: [00:05:55] Yeah. We went up to the--

Angelo Keely: [00:05:56] The water features--

Luke Storey: [00:05:57] And the little bird watching.

Angelo Keely: [00:05:58] Yeah, the bird watching. Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:05:59] We had a deep conversation in there about consciousness and all the things that I like to talk about. All right, so you're back, and you live now in Boulder, Colorado.

Angelo Keely: [00:06:10] That's correct.

Luke Storey: [00:06:10] Wife, two kids.

Angelo Keely: [00:06:12] That's correct.

Luke Storey: [00:06:12] And you're running this company called Kion.

Angelo Keely: [00:06:14] That's right.

Luke Storey: [00:06:15] I want to focus on a couple of key features of your past as I understand them.

Angelo Keely: [00:06:19] Great.

Luke Storey: [00:06:20] That are just wild to me. And I just love talking about wild shit on this show. There's a couple of items in your story that are just like I'm writing my notes as I'm researching you, going literally like, "What the fuck? This is crazy."
So we're going to talk about that. But I think an interesting touch point is that your parents were also-- I call them health nuts back then because there weren't such things as biohackers. My parents were also health nuts giving me supplements when I literally was five years old. My mom was like, "Take your vitamin E." Thank God, very grateful for that. But your parents, were they in the supplement business and pescatarian and organic like early adopters of this life? Tell me a little bit about what your childhood was like in that regard.

Angelo Keely: [00:07:02] Yeah, so my dad was actually an importer of botanicals and ginseng and various different botanicals in the '70s. And then my mom and him had a natural health food store. They bought one out in Wimberley. So I was actually born at home in Wimberley.

Luke Storey: [00:07:18] Oh, wow.

Angelo Keely: [00:07:18] And then a really big natural food store was created that now is like the most powerful one in the world. And it put a lot of other ones out of business. And my parents opened to natural food restaurant like be able to like--

Luke Storey: [00:07:33] Also in Wimberley?

Angelo Keely: [00:07:34] Also in Wimberley.

Luke Storey: [00:07:35] Wimberley is like what-- 40 minutes from here or so?

Angelo Keely: [00:07:37] Yeah, probably from here it's like 40 minutes. It was a great I mean, well, I was only there when I was born. But then my dad actually partnered to do a restaurant with that really big, huge natural food store in Austin. So we moved to Austin to do that. 

And then it didn't work out as they had all planned and they stayed super hardcore health nuts. So I was born at home. I never went to a doctor till I was like seven. I was given lots of supplements as a kid.

Luke Storey: [00:08:05] You're lucky. Do you remember being a kid and getting handed a handful of supplements with your dinner every night and having a hard time taking them all? I remember that I used to hide mine under the rug, and we lived with my grandmother when my parents got divorced, and my mom would walk out of the room and I would literally sweep them under the rug. And then she'd come back in and think that I had taken them. And then we moved out of there, we moved to rug, the sea of just runs, hitting vitamins. Sorry, Mom. I probably wasted a lot of money there.

Speaker3: [00:08:38] I didn't. I liked it.

Luke Storey: [00:08:40] Really?

Angelo Keely: [00:08:40] Yeah. It's funny, though. Now I think about my kids. My son is super into it. Every night he wants to take them, and my daughter is more into it. But I think I just had this-- I believed them. Believe my parents and I thought it was good for me. And they had me pretty sold on it.

Luke Storey: [00:08:55] Did their physical health exemplify the benefits?

Angelo Keely: [00:09:01] I would say when I was much like my early childhood, they were both pretty vibrantly healthy. I would say in elementary school and more towards middle school, I would say their commitment to their own health was not quite as dedicated and I think more due to just mental health and relationship struggles and that kind of stuff. 

And so they weren't quite as vibrant at that time. My dad also had a really traumatic hit a friend passed away. And I think when that happened, he wasn't quite as vibrant afterwards. I don't know. It's hard to remember and piece out together. But early childhood, very vibrant, going to the gym, working out, swimming, going to Barton Springs a lot, lots of outdoor activities, lots of fitness, lots of super clean, healthy eating.

Luke Storey: [00:09:47] Wow, you're fortunate.

Angelo Keely: [00:09:48] Yeah, it was a cool great life. And I grew up not really close to here. I grew up off Bee Caves and a couple of acres and really close to the creek. And I didn't go to school for a while.

Luke Storey: [00:10:00] And so you scored?

Angelo Keely: [00:10:01] Yeah. So I just stayed home.

Luke Storey: [00:10:03] Home birth, natural foods. Yeah, no school.

Angelo Keely: [00:10:07] Yeah. I walked around barefoot. We lived near the creek, so I would just walk barefoot down to the creek, and it was a cool good life. It was--

Luke Storey: [00:10:14] That's awesome.

Angelo Keely: [00:10:15] Yeah, it was very whole. I think people are always looking for like whole foods and holistic life. It felt very integrated.

Luke Storey: [00:10:26] Mh-hmm. Let's fast forward a bit to your teen years. So your parents get divorced, right? And you're in your what-- 14 ish or something?

Angelo Keely: [00:10:35] Yeah, 14, my parents start getting divorced.

Luke Storey: [00:10:37] And you start to rebel from what seems like a close relationship with your parents. I'm just going to tell a version of your story because I--

Angelo Keely: [00:10:46] Go for it.

Luke Storey: [00:10:46] I really study up on my guest because I don't want to fly blind. But the part of your story where you start to get in a bit of trouble, you're getting brush-ins with the police and things like that. You start experimenting with drugs. The part that I want to get to is the day or night when you essentially overdose on LSD and things go terribly south. That's the way to me is when I heard that, I was just like. "How do you even come back from that?"

So lead us into that story. As a word of warning too for people, I talk about plant medicines on the show and I think, give an air of caution and encourage discernment and responsibility. But that said, many of us have had these kind of experiences, but not to the degree that you have.

Angelo Keely: [00:11:37] Yeah. That was a good intro to what I think happened. When I started to get into trouble in high school, I wouldn't say that it was suddenly something new happened, me getting into trouble. I think that as a child-- well, both my parents remained entrepreneurs and I would say remained very-- they're probably two of the most bold, eccentric people I've ever met. So I just grew up in an environment with various eccentric folks, very committed to very distinct ideas, and one had to develop their own self within that context. 

It was a very good family and I am very grateful for it. But I wasn't super coddled or supported to make my own identity. It was like, "You got to figure out your identity to be able to make it in this family" because we are all a lot of intense people. 

And so always throughout school, I felt at odds in that I was from this environment that was a pretty alt and hippie and very intense and eccentric. And I was growing up with normal kids in the suburbs, but I had this really weird, old, funky, hand-built house. Literally, the house was built room by room. So they built the first room on a dirt floor and they built the next room next to it, and they built the rooms on top of it.

Luke Storey: [00:12:57] So the whole house was additions?

Angelo Keely: [00:12:59] The whole house was additions. So talk about a weird psychological metaphor from my childhood maybe. But yeah, so I just grew up in that environment. So when I was in school, I always had an odd relationship with authority and structure and I wanted to be approved of. I wanted to do well. I wanted to be successful. I want to try to be the smartest and be good. So I avoided getting in trouble, but I would always figure out little weird hacks to critique the system or get through it or make it my own.

And I think by the time I got to high school, my parents started getting divorced at 14. And I'm beginning this phase of adolescence, which brain development really changes in 12 to 26. That may be my biggest caution is just people 12 to 26 and how they think about drug use because your brain is very distinctly different 12 to 26 than it is before that or it is after that. And it's going through a lot of changes. 

And I think that those changes encourage people to take a lot more risk. They encourage them to push even kind of farther away from their natural parental community because biologically it's important. You need to get out and do something new and make your own. 

And I'm already preloaded with eccentricity, more manic, entrepreneurial. And I'm at that age where it's like, make my own and then my parental structure is dissipating. So there's not many threads there. And in that context, I started doing drugs a lot more. I got kicked out of high school, arrested a couple of times. And then when I was 16, not my first time, I took LSD. I took way too much LSD with a friend. And--

Luke Storey: [00:14:45] How much is too much in this case?

Angelo Keely: [00:14:49] I don't know exactly because I took like a two at first and then he was like, "Do you want some more? And you had the dropper and you just drop a bunch."

Luke Storey: [00:14:55] So brutal. Do not try this at home as you're about to learn, especially.

Angelo Keely: [00:15:02] Yeah. And I think with language I have now, I had a psychotic break type of experience where it just felt like everything was melting and the level of kind of existential angst, confusion about what I was what was happening, I just felt like I was melting and dying and I panicked and I was looking for help. And I was in a part of Austin that was not really dangerous or criminal, but not probably as safe as where I'd grown up. And I was looking for help and I accidentally provoked a fight with other people in this apartment complex. And they started--

Luke Storey: [00:15:43] Were these like homies?

Angelo Keely: [00:15:44] They were not homies. They were just like other young people living in this apartment complex.

Luke Storey: [00:15:48] Okay. Got it.

Angelo Keely: [00:15:49] I mean, clearly more hard than I was because they stabbed me twice in the back and in the patella tendon, severed my patella tendon and then just beat me really badly. So I woke up in a drainage-- well, I didn't wake up. The ambulances found me in a drainage ditch two storeys down. So I still don't know exactly how I got there, but very severely beaten and stabbed. I was rushed to the hospital and I had to have emergency abdominal surgery, so I have a huge scar here. 

My spleen was barely nicked and otherwise, they reattached my patella tendon and I just was like, really? I mean, as lucky as you could possibly get in that situation in terms of survival.

Luke Storey: [00:16:28] Was there any effort on behalf of law enforcement to find out who had done this?

Angelo Keely: [00:16:34] They were aware who did it because I had provoked it in this drug-induced state. And you're in Texas. They were not in any trouble. I was originally accused of being the troublemaker.

Luke Storey: [00:16:45] Oh, my God. They're like, "And we're charging you with possession." Schedule one. Oh, gosh.

Angelo Keely: [00:16:51] I didn't have charges like that, but not to get into all the details of that, but I woke up a few days later in the hospital. I couldn't move. Clearly, my parents were terrified. I was 16 and a half and I think that really began adulthood.

Luke Storey: [00:17:13] Yeah. Talk about the rite of passage.

Angelo Keely: [00:17:15] Yeah. It was like a hard shift to, I'm responsible for my choices, even if I feel I got in this thing where just things unfolded in front of me and unraveled and I lost control of it, I made certain decisions to get to those next steps and those next stages, no matter how maybe immature I was, even if my brain was not fully-- it was in this weird developmental stage, I had hormones, for whatever reasons, I did make decisions. And then it unraveled in this way. 

And I think I started to see that I had the opportunity to choose my life. I had the opportunity to create my life. And I had a lot of trauma and a lot of pain, a lot of physical trauma, just really intense psychological torment that was going on and flashbacks. And-- 

Luke Storey: [00:18:11] I can't imagine you're in that kind of space. You're vulnerable on such a deeper level. I just think about times in my youth which unfortunately most of my drug use was between 12 and 26 exactly. Good thinking there. Anyway, it's what it is.

Angelo Keely: [00:18:35] Well, I don't think it's uncommon, but that's what it is. 

Luke Storey: [00:18:36] Yeah. Because you're looking for the solution.

Angelo Keely: [00:18:39] Yeah, everything's changing.

Luke Storey: [00:18:41] But just thinking back to times where I would take acid and not be thoughtful obviously about it and have no plan and just end up around kind of dark energy, people, things would go wrong you get stranded somewhere, there'd be a conflict of some kind. Anything outside of total love and safety when you're that vulnerable is traumatic based on my experience. Just things going wonky with how you're going to get home or whatever, it's just super freaky.

Angelo Keely: [00:19:12] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:19:13] Right. Any kind of bad energy or anger, conflict. So when I heard you tell that story on another podcast, I'm just like, "I literally can't imagine because going through that in and of itself, something that emotionally, physically, psychologically traumatic is one thing." But when you were in that state and as you said, the whole world is melting and everything is so unreal anyway, it's unfathomable. And congratulations also on making it back from that. 

Angelo Keely: [00:19:13] Thanks.

Luke Storey: [00:19:43] I think that kind of experience could really send someone on a permanent trajectory to a bad place, irretrievable mental state. It's just insane.

Angelo Keely: [00:19:58] Yeah. I've had friends at that age that experimented with intense drugs, and they didn't ever come back. They lost their mind. And so I feel very lucky is only the way I know how to call it, because I didn't plan out all my steps or figure out exactly how to get back. I just started trying.

Luke Storey: [00:20:22] So it sounds like there was a process of transmutation from that experience that started to unfold thereafter, where you're starting to take a look at your life as a young person and take responsibility for your decisions. And did that lead you into the path of meditation and exploring yoga and acupuncture and the things that we've talked about that I know you've had experience with? Was that in a sense turned into a positive experience for you--

Angelo Keely: [00:20:55] I think it did.

Luke Storey: [00:20:56] Grossly speaking, it's never positive. Everything's kind of neutral until you do something with it and create meaning around it. But it sounds like after getting to know you a little bit that you took the ball and ran with that. It's like, "Oh, no, I'm not doing life this way." What was your kind of process there and turning it around?

Angelo Keely: [00:21:14] I've had friends joke about wanting a near-death experience, not about my story, but in general if you can get woken up to like, "Whoa." you just woken up from the mundaneness of life. But yeah, I would say there's a couple of ways to look at it. One is as a child progressing along and having all these experiences and expanding my experience, I certainly had some elements of things that were negative and challenging in childhood that maybe created some more experience on the negative side of an absolute value scale. But having that kind of experience just boom, just expanded my perspective of what life was and what pain was and what being lost meant and what melting meant. The level of the struggle provided all this new perspective and context. 

And I think that has changed the whole future of my life since then in terms of just trying to seek out and integrate more perspective, not being afraid of what's dark, not being afraid of what's painful. Naturally, I have fear of things, but really trying to lean into them and understand them, and integrate them, and bring them into my life so that I can have the richest, fullest life possible. 

And at that time, the things I really got exposed to were therapy. I got exposed to talk therapy, which I think for that kind of trauma is helpful. It helps to take uncontrollable or overstimulating sensations and imagery and sounds and put them into words that creates a sense of ownership and power and integration with it. So finding words to describe what you're feeling, what I was feeling helped me to integrate it more into my being and into my thoughts.

Luke Storey: [00:23:09] It's funny, what comes to mind is had you had a very thoughtful and intentional experience with LSD? Not that many kids at 16 are doing that, but let's say you did, you also wouldn't have benefited without a process of integration, maybe even in a similar way.

Angelo Keely: [00:23:29] I think that that's a very good point. I think that's a very good point.

Luke Storey: [00:23:31] I know from personal experience there were many early psychedelic trips like that, and some of them went south-- not that south. That's as far south as you can go, and you still live to tell the tale. But even the positive ones where it was a good time, it was just like, move on, you forget about it. "Oh, that was fun. I went to a dead show or just lost our shit." But there was never really any grist for the mill that could be harvested and integrated because you're disintegrating.

You're becoming unwhole and disparate parts of yourself are firing off and you're coming apart, a disillusion of the ego and your intellect and the way you see yourself in the world. And if there's not a period of kind of going, "Okay, what does that all mean and how do we put ourselves back together," you stay frayed.

Angelo Keely: [00:24:23] Totally. Or even if you're not frayed, but you maybe had this one very illuminating experience. It doesn't become integrated into how you interact with your friends, how you show up in your creative work, how you show up with your family. And I think that's what's most interesting to me. I think it's like how I end up being with people, how I end up being with people, and how I end up being with my creativity in my work. 

If I just have this really cool, mind-blowing thing and then it doesn't actually impact the rest of my life, well then that's almost maybe the heart of some addiction where you keep trying to go back to this mind-blowing thing versus having experiences of any sort. They don't have to be drug induced that help change who you are and provide more perspective. And then you integrate them and your life becomes more interesting and fulfilling and there's more potential to express itself.

Luke Storey: [00:25:21] Yeah, it's everything. We just did a show up here in the-- I'm going to call the studio, the loft.

Angelo Keely: [00:25:26] It's the loft. It's good.

Luke Storey: [00:25:27] It's cool. It's a little hard on the wife having all this activity around here, but it is what it is for now. But we had a show with my friends Torn and Cole the other day who are former facilitators and help train integration coaches and therapists and just different people that are psychedelic informed, as they call it. It's not necessarily people who are doing the facilitation, but just people who help someone integrate not only psychedelic experiences, but just any profound moment in your life where you have the raw materials for change.

It could be a vision quest or a divorce or whatever. It's like when there's a huge pattern interrupt in one's life, within that there's the gold. If you have help and know how to find it or if you've become astute in finding it yourself and being able to extract a lasting change, I think that's super important. And it's not only important but it's non-negotiable. I mean, I think what else are you going to do with profound experience of any nature? It's like, "Oh, cool. That was interesting. Move on. Go back to the way we were just back into the same patterns that we had before that."

Angelo Keely: [00:26:38] Yeah, it's just wastage. I guess in that case, you're wasting the opportunity. So I think talk therapy helped a lot, but I think also acupuncture helped a lot on a nervous system level. There's pretty serious nervous system overload from LSD itself and then combine with that type of physical violence. 

And I got really into cold therapy and hot therapy. And I'd say this is kind of the transition where I went from being raised in a family where you know what your values are, but they just tell you what they are and you just go along with it to where suddenly I would say my health journey really became my health journey. 

I was seeking out the answers. I was researching things about nutrition. I was looking into what type of exercise made sense for me or why I might want to do yoga, participating in acupuncture. And it really became my journey. It wasn't just my parents' kid anymore doing these things that I just believed because that was the only thing I was taught.

And I would say that really kicked off as the rest of my personal development and health journey, but it was pretty intense for those first five years. And then I moved out. I think through that I was inspired to start taking care of myself. So I moved out on my 17th birthday. I became emancipated. 

So my last year and a half of high school, I lived on my own. I started supporting myself. I actually started coming out to this neighborhood to do painting work. I was like a house painter.

Luke Storey: [00:28:09] Oh, I wish I would have known you. We painted this house three times. Unfortunately.

Angelo Keely: [00:28:16] Yeah, in that way it was a gift. It's a gift that keeps giving. I keep mining it for more meaning.

Luke Storey: [00:28:25] Yeah. It begs the question, after having such a traumatic experience involving psychedelics after that, at any point did you find any interest in exploring that realm again and from a different perspective more intentionally? And if so, did you derive benefit from it? What's your stance on it now as a dad who's running a company and in a totally different place in your life? 

I know your partner, Ben Greenfield was pretty vocal about his plant medicine and psychedelic use and things like that, and then recently he did a really hard pivot and he was like, "No, it's dangerous. Don't do it," or I'm not going to do it, or whatever his perspective was. 

And I respected that. He publicly was like, "Hey, I think I was wrong about this. I don't want to promote this lifestyle anymore." And I thought, "Good man, good for you." But what's your personal take on it if you feel comfortable speaking to that?

Angelo Keely: [00:29:22] Yeah, I'm comfortable. First of all, I love Ben. He's like my brother. And I think I understand his journey and his perspective from it. And I really respect him for him continuing to try to do his best. I really believe Ben's always trying to do his best, and so I love him.

In terms of my experience, I don't really look at the world and think, "Oh, these things are good or bad." I think I do see things more in context and I see things in terms of a lot of human beings walking their path and trying to figure things out. 

And so I'm not really one to weigh in to say like, "Don't do psychedelics or do psychedelics or don't do drugs." That's just not how I show up in the world because I don't know what is necessarily going to be right for each person at each stage of their life. For me, it did make sense to try psychedelics again after that, and I went through different trial periods of it. I think I was definitely very cautious and scared.

Luke Storey: [00:30:43] I bet.

Angelo Keely: [00:30:45] I was very cautious and scared. And I think from that experience, I gained a-- what's the right word? a thoughtful caution. It's like respecting your elders or something.

Luke Storey: [00:31:04] I know exactly. 

Angelo Keely: [00:31:07] It's like, "Whoa, I really have, not this invincible. I can figure everything out. I'm all-powerful." It really put me in my place, I would just say that way. And so I think when I was 16, I went through different experiences of trying it again after that and trying it in more social situations with friends where it's more of a bonding type thing. 

It was never like, "I want to blow my mind kind of thing." It was more like some type of social bonding type thing. And I'd say over time, it developed more into something that was a much lower dose and really supportive of a meditative process, so being alone, meditating, maybe doing some type of body work and even doing kind of somatic work that I feel like is tied to some of the trauma that I've experienced in my life, like I have stress and stuff, like in my soul as where I stabbed and it ties all these muscles that come into my psoas and then go down through my leg.

So doing self-massage and mobility work, just silent meditation and really more as a support for that type of process is how it became to make more sense for me if and when I would do it. I don't currently do it and that's not because I think that it's bad or not right or anything. It's just I don't feel called to. And I think--

Luke Storey: [00:32:47] That's a really important piece of self-awareness. I think a lot of people just get caught up in the excitement of it. And you can have experiences that are so transformative that I've had to-- not had to, but it's come naturally to me, I think, to pump the brakes and just recalibrate and integrate and things like that. 

But after a profound experience when I'm still unraveling it or even in it because there can be so much magic that transpires and such a visceral experience of God that there's like an attachment to that like, I got to be doing this all the time. I should be connected in this way all the time.

But I think if we were meant to be that way, then we would just have DMT flowing through our veins all the time in a quantifiable sense. And we would all just be living in medicine land, but we're not really here for that. But I think that's a really important piece is that inner knowing when it's time and when it's not. And knowing when it's a call and when it's just a novelty or a curiosity. That's my own journey. Like you, I don't care what people do, but don't hurt other people and we're good. That's my criteria. But--

Angelo Keely: [00:34:11] And even as a novelty to your curiosity, I think that's okay, too.

Luke Storey: [00:34:16] Yeah.

Angelo Keely: [00:34:17] Yeah, there's all kinds of reasons why people do things. And at this point in my life, I think I still participate in practices that provoke insight in some ways even more insightful, in some ways even more uncomfortable than things like that. I've been participating in three times a week psychoanalysis for a while now. In psychoanalysis, basically, you sit on a couch, your eyes are closed, and you're just dreaming, just talking out your dreams. 

And I keep a dream journal and write down my dreams. I really try to provoke my dreams to come out and to explore them. And then my life becomes my dream. I say this thing, my life is my dream. They are melds together, my dream life and my waking life. And it's pretty trippy.

Luke Storey: [00:35:16] Yeah.

Angelo Keely: [00:35:17] And it's stimulating. It brings up all kinds of little-- when I'm open to that level of subtlety and nuance and what I'm feeling, then I start to feel more things with people and work situations and my family, I can be more aware of really specific insecurities or fears. It's a little. It's trippy. So my life is still pretty trippy.

Luke Storey: [00:35:42] It makes sense because there are so many doorways into the subconscious. Back in the '90s, my friends used to call me a health nut, drinking smoothies, taking vitamins, doing saunas, colonics, and all the old-school health practices. 

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I mean, just thinking about meditation, today I laid there under this thing, it's called the Lucio Light. There is even--

Angelo Keely: [00:37:36] I love it.

Luke Storey: [00:37:36] Have you done it? 

Angelo Keely: [00:37:36] Yeah, I did at Paleo f(x) a few years ago, and I was like, man.

Luke Storey: [00:37:40] Oh, actually the woman who was on the show-- oh, my God. How embarrassing if I forget her name. I totally know her. We're friends. Anyway, it'll come to me. She lives in Boulder.

Angelo Keely: [00:37:52] I wondered that because I know there's a Lucio light, not a clinic, but someone who runs programming there, I was wondering. I should reach out to her.

Luke Storey: [00:38:01] Yeah, her name is Allison.

Angelo Keely: [00:38:02] Allison. Okay.

Luke Storey: [00:38:03] Spelled differently than my wife Alyson. Yeah, Allison Pelissier is her name. I'm happy to introduce you, but last I was with her she was based in Boulder. But anyway, this morning I got up and did what I normally don't do, which is not meditate. I did other self care things and just got my day started. And then I realized when you were coming here to record, I was like, "I feel a little scattered. I need to just go defrag the head."

And so I laid into that light and with a new calm journey on and it was I'm like in a totally new world 20 minutes later. And I think it's because I just allowed myself to go into the subconscious and just open my awareness to just change my perspective to get just less out of this like--

Angelo Keely: [00:38:48] Just latched on to.

Luke Storey: [00:38:49] Yeah.

Angelo Keely: [00:38:49] One little thing and I feel like that's the main thing. That's oftentimes what people are looking for in psychedelics. They see that they're all latched on to the way something has to be or some pattern, and they want to blow it open or break it open. And sometimes it's as simple as just meditate.

Luke Storey: [00:39:02] Yeah, especially if the light makes you feel like you're on LSD. That helps.

Angelo Keely: [00:39:07] I do like the shock tea mat. It keep pressure. It's like a needles thing.

Luke Storey: [00:39:13] Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Angelo Keely: [00:39:13] Like laying on the bed of needles. And it really-- I like just normal meditation as well, but it disrupts my whole-- because I have to really relax. I have to release.

Luke Storey: [00:39:24] Dude, over there I have these foot bed of nails. I wish I knew what they were called, like, give a shout out. We'll put them in the show notes anyway, I just forget the name, but they're really beautiful. It's these copper nails and you stand on it. It's wild, but kind of like that, it's meridians and just activating the energy and just getting into a different state.

But anyway, I want to talk about forming your company and I really want to talk about amino acids. It's a very long way around getting because it's such an important thing and we haven't covered it on the show. I don't think I've ever talked about essential amino acids, so we're going to do that. But there's one more story that I just have to get out of you, because this was another one I was like, "Oh my God, I just can't imagine." So you end up in India. You're what? Up in the Himalayas?

Angelo Keely: [00:40:11] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:40:12] Way high up?

Angelo Keely: [00:40:13] Well, I'm like in the foothills.

Luke Storey: [00:40:14] In the foothills. Okay.

Angelo Keely: [00:40:14] I was studying yoga in Rishikesh, little famous Yogi Town on the Ganges.

Luke Storey: [00:40:21] And you have another traumatic experience. Take us into that if you're willing. I'm assuming you've meditated your way through a somatic reaction to it. But that was another story. I'm just like, "How do you come back from that?"

Angelo Keely: [00:40:32] Yeah. So I'm 21 and as part of this self improvement, spiritual path, health journey that I've been on, I end up studying religion in college and health and dance and just like tons. I'm like maxing out at like 21 hours a semester. I'm just obsessed with learning. And I've gotten really into yoga by this time. And so I went to India for two months. One month was to volunteer at an orphanage in the south and another month was to do this advanced yoga training in Rishikesh. 

I've been to Mexico alone by myself, I think like a year before, but 21 pretty much this is my first Asian tour and I am alone staying in this ashram. And I meet a friend. I meet this guy, and he's really nice guy. And he's like, "You should come visit me in my village or whatever." And I'm taking up any opportunity to do things, try things. 

So I get on this bus to go visit him in his village, which is about 45 minutes, maybe 2 hours from Rishikesh. And anyone who's been to India is familiar, I assume, with the fact that people come into oncoming traffic. When you're driving, there's lanes but you constantly are pulling into oncoming traffic and swerving back out.

Luke Storey: [00:41:55] It's madness.

Angelo Keely: [00:41:56] It's madness, which I then later lived in India and I actually drove the whole time. So that's the really impressive thing. After you hear this story, you're like, "Whoa, you chose to live there and drive there." But yeah. So I'm up in the foothills and you're going all these switchbacks on the mountain and my bus is on the mountain side, not on the outside side of the cliff where we're driving on the left side of the road up there. 

And it's just one of those moments where my bus and other bus come around a corner at the same time and the back of my bus hits the back of their bus. And I still remember I looked out and could see-- I make eye contact. And then their bus just fell off the cliff and it jus tumbled hundreds of meters. And we stopped, and we got out. And I think everyone just had the sense of powerlessness and not knowing what to do because it's like a cliff. Is there anything to do at all? And after a while-- and I don't really know it and I can't speak the language, so I don't really know how to-- I just don't know, let alone to do.

Luke Storey: [00:43:06] Like which language are they speaking?

Angelo Keely: [00:43:08] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:43:09] Oh, I know Hindu. Well, good luck. What province are you in right now? 

Angelo Keely: [00:43:15] But after a few minutes, a couple of young guys are like, "Let's go down." And I'm like, "Okay, let's go down." So we spend basically the rest of that day climbing down this cliff to try to rescue people. And 26 people died. The people are basically just like kind of strewn down the cliff. They'd been thrown from it. 

And I got down there and they were just like kids my age. I mean, it was a mixed age, but there was this one guy who was like my age, maybe a little bit younger, who was unconscious, and I didn't really know that much about-- I mean, I knew some about their religious beliefs, etc, but not that much. So I just started chanting a name of God that I assume was his God for being in that region to him and then tried to build basically-- I'm forgetting what it's called, like a brace splint type thing out of the luggage to carry him up on. And we put him on that and just spent the next couple of hours trying to get him up the cliff.

And then when I was done with that, I went back down and there was still one guy who was trapped inside the bus. And so we just ripped the bus apart until we get the guy out and I was just in shock. It was interesting it was not the kind of thing where I felt panic or felt scared. I went into worker mode like how can I help? What can I do? And after a day of that, I had to hitchhike back to the ashram and went back there and called my dad, told him what happened. 

And then I went back to my room and I didn't know anything about trauma biology at this point in time. But I laid down on my little hard bed thing and I had a CD of John Coltrane Blue Train. And I put that on and I just shook violently. I was just shaking violently. And I didn't know like, am I making this up or what's going on? I didn't know. Later on in my life, I learned that is what animals do naturally in a healthy way to release trauma. 

And I just shook for a long time and, I made my trip shorter. I came back to the US. I was supposed to go to Jordan for a year after that, but I came back to the US. And I think going back to the stabbing experience, having the experience of navigating pain and darkness and trauma, somehow intuitively, maybe even taught me that I should shake it out because I didn't really know that or I don't know, maybe I had less barriers up or I was more in touch with myself because I've been doing yoga five hours a day for a month.
But it's interesting. I didn't observe at that point in my life that I needed to really work on this. I kind of thought I'd kind of worked it out. But I actually think the next few years of my life when I got back, I shifted from as much of trying to be this better person, whether that was through health or through service or through educating myself to wanting to be successful. 

And it's interesting, I took this like bent on own trying to be successful. And it lasted with me for a few years. And I think I ultimately worked through it. I mean, I still want to be successful and to be validated and people to like me and to win and stuff like that. But I think I got distracted for a few years. I think for maybe four or five years, I was really trying to not work on my-- somehow the success journey became this more important thing to me. So that's my story. 

Luke Storey: [00:47:04] Wow, dude. Do you know how many people survived that crash?

Angelo Keely: [00:47:09] Five.

Luke Storey: [00:47:09] Oh, my God.

Angelo Keely: [00:47:10] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:47:11] So the vast majority of people.

Angelo Keely: [00:47:13] It was pretty gnarly. And so because I was the one white guy and because I saved multiple people, I was on the cover of the newspaper the next day and on the inside. So I still have the newspaper of it, and it's pretty gnarly. I mean, the bus is, anyone who's seen a major wreck, it's like it just gets ripped apart and crumpled into a little ball of metal by the end.

Luke Storey: [00:47:35] Oh, my God. Yeah, I just watched the feature drama about the kids in the cave in Thailand a couple of nights ago. I think it's called 13 Lives. Recommended by a friend. And I didn't really know anything about that but the level of heroic action that the rescuers took was so inspiring.
I'm kind of reflecting back on your experience. And I've never been in a situation like that where there are people dying and I'm saving people. But I have had a couple of experiences where something kicked in and there was just an innate ability to intervene and just help. It's a really interesting human phenomenon we have that sometimes you have resources that you don't know you had until that moment arrives and you're like, "Holy shit, I'm doing this." That's an extreme example of that.

Angelo Keely: [00:48:28] It feels good. It's amazing how-- I think that's maybe the weirdest thing that feels weird about talking about it. It was scary. It was very gruesome. It was very sad, just so heavy. And at the same time, I felt kind of alive. I was part of something real. I was really helping these people.

Luke Storey: [00:48:53] Talk about presence, too. You're not thinking about, "Oh, my job or--"

Angelo Keely: [00:48:59] There's nothing else at the moment. It's just like--

Luke Storey: [00:49:01] How much money do I have in the bank again? You're just like Uber or Uber present. So you go into a period after that of maybe-- you didn't say this, but I'll just suggest it. Maybe as part of your coping mechanism, it was just likefocus on something else. 

Angelo Keely: [00:49:16] I think it was.

Luke Storey: [00:49:17] And you got into the, I'm going to make something out of my life and be successful. And it's funny because a lot of really successful people, I think, are that way because they're running from something. There's things they don't want to think about or feel. And so at least with that, there's generally a positive outcome versus becoming an alcoholic or something, where you go through something and you're running, but the means by which you're running happen to actually have deleterious effects on your life, but you can also be running and building something too.

Angelo Keely: [00:49:51] Yeah, I think so long as you're building or creating something that has some amount of positive effects to it then yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:49:59] Well, what a beautiful segue, Angelo, because you now have built something. You probably built things before. We're going to skip to the Chase. So I found your company, Kion, I guess through just our mutual friend and your business partner, Ben Greenfield, talking about, "Oh, I started a supplement company" and he started talking about it and I got some of the products and I was like, "Cool."

All the ingredients, check out. It's clean, it's legit, as I would assume from Ben because he's pretty knowledgeable and discerning and now you're doing the thing. So I guess the first question is how did you end up hooking up with Ben? You have someone that's got a vast body of knowledge, a big audience, didn't at that time, to my knowledge, have a flagship brand or product that was his own to promote. 

And I find that fascinating because I've been doing what I'm doing for six and a half years now, and I don't really have a thing. I just find cool things that people like you were doing and I go like, "Hey, this is cool. I found this. Buy this thing if you want. I like it." And that's kind of my thing. But what was it to meet him? How did you meet him? How did you guys actually say, "Hey, let's let create something that hasn't existed?"

Angelo Keely: [00:51:04] So I think it really is the story of like initially two individuals that are on two separate paths so I think relating to you and to Ben's path. He started back in 2008, I want to say, doing podcasting, he's like OG podcaster. And I think his journey basically was he interviewing a lot of other people and telling the stories of other people's brands, and he wanted to be more part of something. 

He wanted to be more part of a brand that could be his, which I think is a very normal desire and development of someone who's on that journey. And I think my path was more-- I mean, it's interesting going back to my parents. I joke about it because people often ask me like, "Well, how did you start this or why?" It's like amino acids were the first-- I mean, it's one of the most important supplements I remember my mom giving to me and her telling me like, "Angie, can't you feel it?" It's so amazing. And so from the earliest age, if my life is my dream, and I was going to dream up what would be like the perfect company that would make three-year-old Angie's mom happy, it would be an amino acid company.

Luke Storey: [00:52:19] Do your parents like your aminos?

Angelo Keely: [00:52:22] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:52:23] That's good.

Angelo Keely: [00:52:23] Yeah, but it's like I don't know, how conscious am I or am I just playing out the dream of my life to some degree or what the intergenerational part of my life is. These supplements and the supplements that we make, and coffee and the ethos of what we do was something that I was raised in that was highly important to me, that remained really important to me, that then became this more highly emphasized part of my life after 16.

I did pursue a lot of different things in career, a lot of different things in health. And around the end of 2016, I got introduced to Ben through a mutual friend advisor kind of group like, "Oh, you guys should meet. Ben wants to do this thing and maybe you guys are a good fit." And we met and we were just very compatible. I think that's the simplest story of our dynamic.

Luke Storey: [00:53:21] How many years have you guys been working together now?

Angelo Keely: [00:53:23] We met the very end of 2016.

Luke Storey: [00:53:25] Okay. So quite a while.

Angelo Keely: [00:53:26] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:53:26] Yeah, that's pretty good because as I'm sure you know, partnerships often seem like a great idea in their inception. And they are pretty prone to going south. A lot of partnerships don't work out. My dad, who's I guess, for lack of a better term, self-made man, entrepreneur kind of guy , in my whole life, anytime I was like, "Hey, I met this person. We're going to do this thing." He's like, "Never get partnered." He's fully anti partner. Do your thing or don't do it. 

And I've had partners and it's worked out for a period and sometimes it hasn't, but that's a pretty good track record for you guys. What does it involve in terms of, okay, so we're going to make our first product? It's aminos or whatever it was. You find a formulator. What's the first step and actually having an idea like, "Hey, there's this category that we're really into. It's benefited us. We're not satisfied with what's out there. We think we could do it better." You find someone to manufacture it. What goes into the initial stages of actually bringing something to market?

Angelo Keely: [00:54:32] So I think this journey can be really different for different people. It's not like there's one way to do it. Another reason why I think we were compatible in that situation was that Ben initially had a platform to start with, and so we were in a position, it wasn't the platform it is now. I think it was like 30,000 or 40,000 Facebook followers or something like that, and I partnered on that as well. 

So it was like, "We're going to build up this. We're going to build up the Ben audience in that brand and we're going to build this Kion company." And I think we were just really aligned on working together in that way. And I think one big part of it is that sales are really important. You can have a really awesome idea for a product, you can go through all the manufacturing, you go through all the operational things, but you got to sell the product. You have to have people who want to buy it. 

And I'm not endorsing this guy as the idea of a businessman. But you look at someone even like Nike and Phil Knight, who built Nike, he started by selling these Japanese shoes out of the trunk of his car like track meets. And that's how I started to get the cash to buy the next set of shoes and buy the next set of shoes, and buy the next set of shoes.
So I think the number one most important thing from pure business, so I'm not talking about when you really get to what the heart of business is like, who are you going to sell it to and how are you going to sell it to them? Can you create enough value in their life and trust that they're going to buy it from you and they're going to want to come and buy it from you again? So I think that is the most important thing that you have to have to start with, because if you don't have that, then you can have the coolest idea ever, you can get everything made and you're going to be sitting at home with all your stuff.

And so I think you start there. You start with like, who's the person? How am I helping this person? Why are they going to want to buy it? How am I going to get it in front of them so that they even would want to buy it? And then I think the next step is, okay, well then you really have to make a good product. You have to make a product that you're not just going to sell them once and they're never going to want something from you again. That's not building a business. That's like a con game of some kind. So you have to make sure you build a really good product. 

And to do that in the supplement space, it is about ultimately having a good idea for what the science is behind it or what the formulation is. That's maybe a better way of saying it because it doesn't have to be evidence-based. You could have some type of really cool botanical that doesn't really have great studies behind it, but you've used it, you really like it, you believe it's going to work for people. So having a really clear idea of like what it is that's going to work, that is going to work. 

And then yeah, you basically work with contract manufacturers. So in the supplement space, very, very few brands except for some of the absolute largest, but even the largest work with manufacturing groups that will actually make it for you. So you have to set standards for them, say this is what I want in it, this is where I want the ingredients from, this is what the specs have to hit. You basically describe in great detail exactly what you want if you're trying to make a really awesome product. There are plenty of people that just go and be like, "Hey, I just need this thing to sell to this person. Can you make it feel like that?"

Luke Storey: [00:57:54] I'm well aware. I go to a health food store sometimes, and I'm like, "Oh, vitamin C." Whatever it is. The first thing I do with anything is ingredients. And I'm looking for excipients, schwag shit. The garbage that they put in so many health supplements is astonishing and it makes me feel bad. Not only for the fact that you're probably not going to derive much benefit from it and you're going to be wasting your money, but there's often things in supplements that are actually really bad for you too. 

So it's like the quality control piece is tricky for me. And when somebody comes out with something, not that I'm the expert, but I know a bit about what's good to put in your body and what's not and sometimes I read this stuff and I'm just like, "Fail. You guys blew it."

Angelo Keely: [00:58:44] And I think it's because lots of times people don't know. They have some clue like they want to be in the health business, there's a struggle where people are trying to make a living for themselves. They're trying to figure out what their next step is. They're trying to expand. And I think it happens honestly too and I'm not saying this is your situation, but people see we have an audience, well, I do have people that trust me because I'm checking out lots of products, I could offer something to them. And then if they don't know really how to make it or some other person's like, "Hey, I can help you make this thing or do it, they could just--" You just know.

Luke Storey: [00:59:14] That's a good point.

Angelo Keely: [00:59:15] The manufacturing of food product or supplement product is a complicated business. It's a complex supply chain. There's all these different partners, there's lots of quality testing and specs. It's not the thing you just kind of just do. You got to be really committed to it.

Luke Storey: [00:59:31] That's one reason why I haven't done it. And plus it's just like, I don't know, I feel like there's nothing really missing from the market. Something new and novel will come out like a product with spermidine, or Urolithin A, things that have been in the periphery of the molecular world. There's some research behind them, but they're not readily available or readily known.

Sometimes something like that comes out and I'm like, "Damn, I wish I would have discovered this because I could have grabbed on to it because I believe in its effects." Otherwise, this is awesome. But for me, it's like why do make another protein powder? It's like there's already a good one. You could sit right here.

Angelo Keely: [01:00:12] Well, I think that's the case unless you're really passionate about that. I think that's the thing, and I am passionate about that. I'm passionate about making really awesome products and doing that really well. If I was more passionate about being a podcast host, I would bust my butt to try to figure out how to do that. And at one point I thought like, "Oh, maybe I'll try to do a podcast. Everyone else is doing a podcast."

Luke Storey: [01:00:36] Who doesn't have a podcast at this point?

Angelo Keely: [01:00:39] And I don't deliberately because I'm like, I want to be great at this thing. I want to be really good at that. And there were a lot of other proteins and there were a lot of other aminos and there are other coffees. Our top products are not the most novel, but we work really hard to make them awesome. They do it really well.

Luke Storey: [01:00:59] Well, there's something you talked about earlier in that and not to minimize people to a lifetime value customer, but that's what they call it in the business, but you got to make things that work, where people actually see benefit or they're going to be the example you gave where they're like, "Oh, cool packaging. I heard this thing's awesome." and they buy it and you never hear from them again.

So it has to work. To me, as a consumer of someone who buys all kinds of crap like this- not to diminish, call it crap, it's bad way to say it, but my cabinets are just full of stuff. I did a video the other day about my top 10 supplements and it's like we can't even fit them on the freaking kitchen island. 

There's stuff still in the pantry. So I'm that guy, but what gets me as the consumer is when I'm out of something and I'm like, "Oh man, I'm out." Like, your sleep formula, I hit you guys up a couple of weeks ago. I'm like, "Dude, I'm running low." I'm not even to the bottom of the bottle yet. And I'm like, "I take this stuff every night because it works." I get my Aura ring in the morning and I'm like, "Oh shit, I got more REM sleep last night," which is hard for me, harder for deep sleep, incidentally. 

So I'm that customer that's like, "No, I actually need this in my day-to-day protocol. So I have really no choice unless I couldn't afford it or something, obviously. But I have to order it because now it's become part of my regimen. And I know when it's not there and it's not novel necessarily. It's just like it does the thing I want it to do.

Angelo Keely: [01:02:23] And in that case, for making that product--

Luke Storey: [01:02:26] That was a hint to send me some more, I guess. By the way, if you guys didn't catch that, he's the CEO, he has the power to make a call. Give me a crate of that shit. But right, you got to be seeing results to the point where you're like, oh, actually not that you need anything. You need air and water and calories. But to optimize your life--

Angelo Keely: [01:02:44] To help and to make your life better if you have the means to do that. And so it's like in making that sleep product, it was very straightforward. It was, okay, we want to sleep better. What will work to help us sleep better? And we use third-party research groups to make sure that--  we actually we'll use a couple and they'll do a meta-analysis of all the research out there about every single ingredient. And then we have another one critique it, and then I just get in there and just read it all and ask lots of questions and argue and think through all the things. 

And what it came down to was there were three ingredients that had by far the most clinically researched proof over the longest period of time. They were all very safe, that were just very aligned with the ethos of what our product suite already was. And so none of them are the sexiest ingredients. They're tryptophan, which is the most cliche common. It's like the turkey joke. You eat too much turkey, then you feel tired. Well, there's a reason why. Add a gram of tryptophan, it's just been highly, highly studied and it's very, very safe to support falling asleep, staying asleep, and getting more restful sleep, and then a form of GABA called PharmaGABA, which is actually the only GABA that has all the research behind it, and then L-theanine, which also has the most amount of research. 

And all of these two are ingredients, they're not like a drug I guess I would say. No supplements are drugs, but they don't trick you into anything. It's basically supplying yourself with these core three amino acids that will support your body naturally producing neurotransmitters that help you to fall asleep and stay asleep and sleep better.

Luke Storey: [01:04:31] Right. And I agree with that because I have a little bit of understanding a tryptophan is eventually going to cascade down into melatonin, right?

Angelo Keely: [01:04:41] It's actually tryptophan to 5HTPE to serotonin and to melatonin. But it's really the serotonin.

Luke Storey: [01:04:48] Oh, okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:04:49] It's potentially the melatonin, but it's actually the serotonin in that, I think has the greatest impact.

Luke Storey: [01:04:54] Oh, cool. Well, there you go. It's cool, man. One of my not-so-secret weapons for relaxation and quality sleep at the end of the day is something called Organifi Gold. It's a powdered drink mix jam-packed with nine superfoods, and I use this stuff to make the most bomb gold and lattes at night using just warm water or raw milk or some ghee or coconut oil. It takes about 3 minutes for me to make it, and it tastes like a delicious herbal tea, but it also packs a powerful punch when it comes to improving sleep without making me feel groggy the next morning, which is awesome. 

Here's what's in it. Turmeric, an ancient root that's been used for over 4,000 years to promote a healthy response to occasional aches and pains. It's also a potent antioxidant and antiviral to aid in boosting immunity. And we've got ginger. Ginger has been used for ages to assist the body's immune system, and it also provides a little bite of flavor to this tea, while at the same time assisting in soothing the body to support rest, digestion, and of course stress. 

And then the reishi mushroom and you've got to have that. It's known as the Queen of Mushrooms and has been used in China and Japan to support wellness for over 2,000 years. Then we've got Lemon Balm, which has been used to calm and relax the body for just as long across multiple cultures. And then lastly, Organifi threw in some turkey tail mushroom, which is also a potent antioxidant that helps soothe aches and pains.

Best of all, Organifi Gold is certified organic and free of nasty toxins like glyphosate. Organifi does it right. No shortcuts ever. Do yourself a favor and grab some Organifi Gold right now by visiting organifi.com, and that's organifi with an I. And if you use the code lifestylist, you're going to save 15% off any item in the store. That's organifi.com. 

What I've noticed, though, is if I take three of those sleep capsules, I get sleepy. But here's the thing, I don't wake up groggy. That's the key. Because there's a lot of stuff I could take in my supplement cabinet that will knock me out, but I'll wake up feeling like goofy. You know what I mean?

Angelo Keely: [01:04:54] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:07:06] I used to make this, some of my friends, if they ever hear this back in LA, will remember this, but I used to make this nighttime sleep drink called, I just named it the knockout punch. There's my product. God dam it is free.

Angelo Keely: [01:07:16] Knockout punch. There you go.

[01:07:17] But, dude, I would put a tablespoon of tryptophan, I put guava, magnesium, lemon balm, anything I could find online. Any herb, any supplement that made you tired and sleepy, I would put it in way, way too much and to the point I actually gave it to a girlfriend that I was dating at the time, and she took it the first night and had to pull over on her way home because she felt too not safe. 

Angelo Keely: [01:07:39] So sleepy.

Luke Storey: [01:07:40] I think she might have been the one that named it the knockout punch. I forget. And it worked beautifully. You were just toast for nine hours, but then the next morning, you feel like you lost some IQ points and just can't function. 

So that's the tricky thing with supplementing things for sleep, is can you metabolize it in time to actually wake up feeling refreshed and not feeling like you just took sleep medication at 7:00 in the morning. So well done.

Angelo Keely: [01:08:09] Thank you. And again, we weren't trying to be like the cool, hot, most special cutting edge thing. It was like, what actually will work? What will work, and what's safe and what's been studied. What do I want to take every day and I will give to my family every day. And if it's some really cool new thing, great. If it's basically your knockout punch from 20 years ago--

Luke Storey: [01:08:35] I had like the bulk GABA though not the PharmaGABA that you guys use it and it had that niacin flush kind of effect, where you're like, "Whoa, I'm dizzy and turning red" way too much GABA. I think now my formula is I'll take the Kion sleep and then some CBD, some Ned CBD or this other brand element. Those are the two that I like currently. 

Hondas is another great brand give them a shout out. So there's a couple of good CBD brands. Most of it I've tried doesn't have any noticeable effect and then magnesium. And that's good. And then if I'm really smoked I'll take even a melatonin suppository or a high dose or oral melatonin if I need to reset my circadian rhythm or just break out--

Angelo Keely: [01:09:20] I would say that's the time to use melatonin. I wouldn't recommend using it unless you're trying to reset your circadian clock.

Luke Storey: [01:09:25] That's what I figured out.

Angelo Keely: [01:09:26] Especially don't take it late at night because that's what it does. Then it'll make you think that you should get tired late at night.

Luke Storey: [01:09:31] Dude, it's the worst time.

Luke Storey: [01:09:33] I learned that with the suppositories, the Mitozen's suppositories. I think they're like 450 milligrams. They're insane amount of melatonin. And when I first got them, I'd be like, "Oh, it's 10:00. I'm getting ready for bed." And I would take it, and then I'd be really tired the next morning. 

So I figured out if I wanted to do a hard reset like that or just I need to guarantee no matter what, a good night's sleep, because there's a big day, I'll do it, like right at dusk. And then I start to get super sleepy at nine. And then by the time I'm metabolized, it's next morning. I'm fine.

Angelo Keely: [01:10:01] I think it's also good for intercontinental travel. Whenever you are crossing many, many time zones and you really need to reset, then it makes sense. Because it's not just sleep. When you reset your circadian clock, it's like all of your daily functions get kind of reset. So yeah, just be cautious with it. You use it when you really need it.

Luke Storey: [01:10:19] I agree. I learned that. But I'm the guy. I'm the guinea pig. I try shit and then I tell the people that listen to the podcast, don't do that the way I did it. My method of supplementation, which I don't recommend, but I'm here to take one for the team, is when you get something, take four times the recommended dose, get the effect and then scale it back to what works. But I think--

Angelo Keely: [01:10:42] Why do you do the four X start?

Luke Storey: [01:10:44] Because I'm just an idiot. But I think the smart way to do it is you actually scale up until you hit your sweet spot. That's really the most logical way to do it. But I think it's partially just my personality. I'm just extreme and weird. But also people send me all kinds of stuff and I got to get to an understanding of it and figure out if it works or not. 

And to do that, I just go maximum and I'm like, "Oh shit, okay, it does stuff." Maybe it gave me the runs. And that was a desired effect or whatever side effect from doing it wrong. But then I know like, okay, word to the wise, there's a reason why it has recommended dosages.

Angelo Keely: [01:11:19] And 12 capsules of Kion Sleep, you're going to feel pretty sleepy.

Luke Storey: [01:11:23] Okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:11:23] If that's what you're doing, if you're taking for times.

Luke Storey: [01:11:25] I've taken quite a few. I think I'm three or four right now I'm rationing because I'm low as I said.

Angelo Keely: [01:11:32] We'll get you more.

Luke Storey: [01:11:33] But I want to talk about aminos.

Angelo Keely: [01:11:34] Great. Lets do it.

Luke Storey: [01:11:35] When I was thinking about this episode I'm going through, I had all these questions about amino acids because I've never covered it. And here we are one hour and 5 minutes into it. But I love your back story too, and there's just so much juice in there that I wanted to share with people.

But I've never done a show on aminos and as I've added them to my regimen, the Kion aminos, of course, which are great, by the way, now it's kind of like, "Oh my God, why wasn't I taking this the entire time?" Because I've had them here and there and just not whatever. I didn't pay that much attention. 

But now that I'm starting to feel the effects and I'm starting to do more research and learn about them, it's like, "Oh, this needs to be at least for me, I mean, everyone can do whatever, but this is part of the foundational daily 10 things where it's got to be there. 

So your mom's giving you these essential amino acids when you're a kid. 20-plus years later, you make this company. What are the essential amino acids? What do they do for you? Why do I feel awesome on them?

Angelo Keely: [01:12:38] So I'll start by just describing what protein is.

Luke Storey: [01:12:41] Okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:12:42] And put it in the context of the other macronutrients. So there's a whole category of nutrients we call micronutrients. We're thinking about like vitamins, etc. When we talk about the macronutrients, there are carbohydrates, fat, and proteins. And in our body, we're like 55 to 60% water. And the rest of our body that is solid mass, over half of it is made up of proteins. So I'm kind of blending two ideas. One is like the proteins that you eat and the other one is literally your body is made up of protein.

Luke Storey: [01:13:15] The protein that you are.

Angelo Keely: [01:13:16] The protein that you are, yeah. But the reason why I make that comparison is because when you consume carbohydrates, you consume fat. Their primary purpose is for you to convert them into ATP energy. So an energy source allows your body to actually move, your brain to think, everything to function. 

The primary purpose of protein and the amino acids that make them up are to help you rebuild the proteins in your body. The way that the proteins in your body work is that they are constantly in a state of breaking down and then re synthesizing. But when they break down, they lose some of their constituent parts. 

And proteins fundamentally are amino acids. Proteins are just a string or chain of amino acids tied together, and there's 20 of them that are typically in most of the proteins in your body and that are in muscle, for example. 

So your body, well, you can eat carbohydrates or fat, and that's going to help you have energy to produce ATP to actually do things, anything else in your body that's a protein cannot get its needs met from just carbs and from fat. It has to come from amino acids either in the form of a whole food protein or in the form of an amino acid supplement. 

So what kind of things in your body are protein? Well, obviously your muscles, but all of your organs. When we talk about enzymes, enzymes are proteins. When we talk about our neurotransmitters, our neurotransmitters are basically amino acids. Most of our body, most of the things that we talk about in our body are these things. They're basically proteins or individual amino acids. 

So you should definitely eat protein and amino acids because if you don't, you're going to have all kinds of issues with all these different functions in your body. Then the question becomes like, how much protein, which amino acids? Why? How does it all kind of work? So this is where you get into the difference. Are we still good?

Luke Storey: [01:15:19] Yeah, that's great.

Angelo Keely: [01:15:20] Okay, great.

Luke Storey: [01:15:20] You're knocking out some of my other questions in one fell swoop.

Angelo Keely: [01:15:24] Okay, great. I love this stuff. I love talking about it. So proteins that you eat are composed of these 20 amino acids. But there's one fundamental difference between these amino acids. Some are called essential and some are called nonessential. There's also conditionally essential amino acids, sometimes they're essential, but we'll just keep it simple right now, for essential and nonessential.

The essential part means that your body cannot synthesize them. So you have to eat them in the form of some kind of food. On the other hand, the nonessential ones, if you eat the essential ones, it can actually create the nonessential ones in your liver. So you don't have to eat them. In whole food sources, there's nothing where it's like only the essential amino acids. 

So it's not like you would typically just be only eating the essential and then force your body to create all the nonessential ones, but the essential ones you really need to eat. And there's nine of them. Those are the nine essential amino acids and the 11 nonessential amino acids.

Oftentimes the discussions and arguments around plant based diets or animal protein based diets is around something being a complete protein. And a complete protein means that it has all the nine essential amino acids in sufficient amounts. 

Very few plant proteins have the nine essential amino acids in sufficient amounts to stimulate muscle protein synthesis to actually support the development of the new proteins in your body. Thus, you need to mix and match different plant proteins, or there's like quinoa, soybeans, buckwheat. There are a few that are considered more complete on their own.

Luke Storey: [01:17:06] Brutal. My stomach hurts just thinking about those. Well, there's a lot of questions that come to mind and many that I already have here, but something just occurred to me that wasn't in my notes. What am I? 51 right now. And so your digestive enzymes, the enzymes in your body that you would use to process protein and your HCL, all of this stuff starts to decline over 40, let's just say roughly from my understanding.

So as you're talking about the amino is at first I'm like, "Well, what if I just eat four steaks a day? I'm good. Why would I ever just take exogenous amino acids on top of that?" And then it occurred to me that even if we're eating foods, like let's just say a steak that has a lot of these essential amino acids, as we age, are we indeed less able to assimilate the amino acids from those foods?

Angelo Keely: [01:18:03] Yes.

Luke Storey: [01:18:03] Okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:18:04] Yes, that is one of the most important cases for someone choosing to supplement with essential amino acids as a dietary supplement and not just through whole foods. Basically, someone really starts at age 40, but at age 50, it only accelerates the risk of sarcopenia, which is the loss of muscle mass. And that is--

Luke Storey: [01:18:24] That is pretty much the only reason I work out, by the way.

Angelo Keely: [01:18:27] Well, it's actually really interesting--

Luke Storey: [01:18:28] Because no matter how hard I work out, I never look that fit. So I'm like, "I'm definitely not doing it for that because it doesn't do anything."

Angelo Keely: [01:18:34] Are you doing cardio or resistance training?

Luke Storey: [01:18:37] Resistance training. I go to ARS once a week and I have my x three bar here. Now that it was cooling off, now it got hot, as you can tell right now, because we're both sweating balls here. But I have the Carol bike in the garage and the LiveO2 or contrast training thing. When it's not that hot, I get out there and I will do some pretty hardcore cardio. It's like a hit training basically on a bike.

Angelo Keely: [01:19:00] Which is great for heart health.

Luke Storey: [01:19:00] Yeah.

Angelo Keely: [01:19:02] It's not as important. It's not going to help with muscle really.

Luke Storey: [01:19:04] Yeah, but it's like I literally just don't want to be falling down when I get old and breaking bones in the shower and shit.

Angelo Keely: [01:19:13] And I would say muscle-- I don't want to jump too far ahead, but I would say muscle is the most important asset that you want to take into old age, the most important physical asset. And that's because it helps modulate metabolic health, your cardiovascular health. And the most obvious one and it seems cliche, but it's so true, is that when you get older, your ability to stay active is one of the most important leading indicators of how well you will continue to do. 

And if you can't move around, you can't be active, you can't do things, your health just starts to decline even more. And then if you get injured, which is much more likely, if you have less muscle, then your body goes through this whole stress response. You lose even more of your muscle, you become even weaker. 

So really the idea of going into your older age already with lean muscle is one of the most important leading indicators of ultimate longevity in terms of health span, in terms of being able to do stuff when you're old. It's like meditating Monk who's--

Luke Storey: [01:20:14] That's--

Angelo Keely: [01:20:16] Unlimited autophagy.

Luke Storey: [01:20:17] That's amazing because I'm not really hung up on how long I live. People might think from the life style that I live, which to some people, is pretty extreme, to me, it's extreme to not do the stuff I do, but that's just me. But it's not like, Dave Asprey was like, "Oh, I want to live to 180." I'm not that concerned with how long I'm here, but I want to be able to do stuff--

Angelo Keely: [01:20:42] Like live well.

Luke Storey: [01:20:43] As long as I'm here, I don't want to be the little man crossing the crosswalk with the hunchback and can't move. No, if I'm gifted and likewise encumbered by the physical body, I want it to work as well as possible for as long as I'm meant to be here. And when my expiration dates up, then bye, I'll move on. But man, there's so much suffering in aging. I just observe older people and there are very few of them that look vital and they're having a good time in their body.

Angelo Keely: [01:21:13] And when you look at them, you're like, "Oh, they look like they're having a good time." It's because they're active. They're walking or while this guy's running or he's picking up his grandchild or something. It's like, oh, they're physically vibrant and that is they have energy and they have muscular strength. And they also likely have some type of cardiovascular health. They're not scared of going upstairs.

Luke Storey: [01:21:36] And in preparation for this interview today, something occurred to me. I was outside with Marius, the guy who helps me keep the house in order here. And we were moving this patio furniture so I could move the ice bath over. And as I was lifting it up, I looked at this ledge and I was like, "Should I step up on the ledge with this thing in my hand?"

Probably not. And I thought, "No, I think I can do it." And I did kind of a sketchy move where I could have gotten really hurt. And it occurred to me because I've been at least putting some effort in to three days a week to working out, I was able to do something that looked sketchy. And then I did it and I felt my glute kicking. "Oh, good job, glute. We did that shit." And I went over the ledge with the thing and I was safe and everything was fine. 

And it occurred to me, that's the kind of shit when you get older. I mean, I'm not elderly, but I'm 51. Those are the kind of things I want to be able to do. I want to hang out, man.

Angelo Keely: [01:22:29] Not be afraid.

Luke Storey: [01:22:30] Yeah. 

Angelo Keely: [01:22:31] And it's not really more than two to three times a week of some resistance training that works for you, some type of walking, like cardio that works and amino acid nutrition. It doesn't have to be essential amino acids, but it really let's circle back.

Luke Storey: [01:22:47] Yes.

Angelo Keely: [01:22:48] This is where it becomes really interesting. And I think the aging point is such a good point in this. So going back to this plant protein versus animal protein. One point is like literally in the food itself, how many essential amino acids are in it? Then another issue related to that is how digestible is the protein itself. So you could have something that has a more complete protein in it, but it's harder for your body to digest and extract those amino acids. 

And that creates another issue about why that protein may not be equal to another protein. So ideally you're looking for a protein source where you can literally break it down into its constituent amino acids and that the profile of those amino acids are ideal for your body to be able to use. So in the spectrum of whole food, animal proteins and those include though things like dairy and they include things like eggs are superior.

Luke Storey: [01:23:46] Eggs have the amino acids too?

Angelo Keely: [01:23:48] Yes. Eggs are like at the top of the of the protein scale in amino acids.

Luke Storey: [01:23:53] That's weird. I have two raw eggs in my smoothie every morning. 

Angelo Keely: [01:23:56] Yeah. Eggs are an excellent source of essential amino acids.

Luke Storey: [01:24:00] Egg yolks, I want to clarify. I don't like the white.

Angelo Keely: [01:24:02] Oh really? The whites would have the amino acids.

Luke Storey: [01:24:04] Come on, shit, dude.

Angelo Keely: [01:24:04] You got to put the whites in. Yeah, the yolks are just fat.

Luke Storey: [01:24:07] They just leave me out. The whites leave me out. Anyway, I degress.

Angelo Keely: [01:24:12] Yeah. So in that, that's why animal proteins tend to be easier to eat to get in your daily essential amino acids need. It doesn't mean you can't do it with plants. You just have to eat a lot more, and thus when you're eating a lot more, you're eating more calories, etc. and it's harder for your body to digest them, but you could support that with supplementary digestive enzymes. 

There's ways to get more out of plants and we talked about a little bit before and not to go too down the vegan path, but that is one reason why they'll add lots of digestive enzymes to plant based protein products. Is because if you don't, you'll get pretty bad stomach cramps. And it can hurt.

Luke Storey: [01:24:48] Bro, I cannot do vegan protein, plant based proteins. Invariably it just wrecks my gut. I just know and I've tried to psych myself out and, like, maybe it's in your mind because you think that it does. You then speak it into reality, that kind of thing, and I'm like, "No, it's just a fact."

Angelo Keely: [01:25:07] And it's not everyone. Some people can.

Luke Storey: [01:25:09] Yeah. No. I mean, so it's like--

Angelo Keely: [01:25:10] I too I'm one of those people, it is not my thing.

Luke Storey: [01:25:12] Smoothies fans all over the place, and I look at the ingredients, rice protein. I'm like, "Oh God, get some of this freaking away." Come on, you guys. But I also that's my-- Achilles heel is always been my digestion. Well, I've had many Achilles heel is, but that's one of the remaining ones that I have to really fine tune. But yeah, I guess some people could do that.

Angelo Keely: [01:25:32] Some people can. I mean, I won't digress too much in that.

Luke Storey: [01:25:36] Sure. Yeah.

Angelo Keely: [01:25:36] I'm not a protein fan. But coming back then to the essential amino acid question because I just compared plant proteins versus animal proteins and why animal proteins are potentially a better source of these amino acids are. They're easier to get the amino acids that you need. But one other really interesting point that is very well documented through research is that the essential amino acids is not only are the amino acids that your body cannot synthesize and thus you must eat them, they are also the amino acids that stimulate muscle protein synthesis. 

So as I said earlier, all the proteins in your body are constantly in a state of being broken down and then rebuilding. If you want to maintain your muscle, and especially if you want to build more muscle, and this doesn't mean getting all bulky and ripped. It just means like having solid muscle mass in your arms.

Luke Storey: [01:26:28] And being able to lift your leg or furniture over the edge.

Angelo Keely: [01:26:30] Yeah, exactly. You want to be in a situation in which you're stimulating more muscle protein synthesis than muscle protein breakdown is occurring in your body. And what's been proven is that the essential amino acids themselves are the component parts, the active component of protein that stimulates the muscle protein synthesis. 

So while in a whole food category or selection, eating some type of lean meat is basically going to have the greatest lean or eggs is going to have the greatest impact on new muscle protein synthesis for the least amount of calories and probably the healthiest decision for for many people. If you take essential amino acids as a younger adult under 50, no offense, but under 50 younger adults, it has gram for gram, you're a young dad, it has three times the muscle protein synthesis as whole food protein. 

So one scoop of Kion aminos, and it's not the only brand that does this, but I can go more into the formula behind why it is so important for this as well, one scoop which has five grams, or if you take the capsule, seven capsules has five grams, is equivalent to 15 grams of whole food protein, 15 grams of something like a whey protein isolate, in terms of muscle protein synthesis, rebuilding new proteins.

Luke Storey: [01:27:49] So if eating 15--

Angelo Keely: [01:27:51] But that's if you're younger. As you get older, not only is it more difficult for your body to break down whole food protein steak, your body also is less sensitive to the stimulation of the muscle protein synthesis. So it's not just the digestion. It's also like the way that your body responds to mTOR and being able to stimulate this new muscle growth, it becomes basically less sensitive. 

So it actually gets the impact of essential amino acids become greater on a multiplication scale than whole food protein as you age. It's not because the essential amino acids are becoming more powerful as you age, but as you age, protein works less and less and less well for you. 

So as you get older and older, it gets up to four times, five times the impact of a whole food protein. So as you age, taking essential amino acids as a dietary supplement are a great way to help hit your daily needs to maintain muscle, build new muscle in a much more efficient, effective way than a whole food protein.

Luke Storey: [01:28:54] That's crazy, though. The 15:1 ratio, I'm thinking about eating 15 grams of steak, and I'm going to get--

Angelo Keely: [01:29:02] Versus 5 grams of--

Luke Storey: [01:29:03] Of aminos.

Angelo Keely: [01:29:04] Of aminos.

Luke Storey: [01:29:05] But get less benefit.

Angelo Keely: [01:29:07] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:29:08] Very ultimately at least someone of my age at least.

Angelo Keely: [01:29:10] Yeah. And so one other nuanced point I'd make here though, is that someone would say, "Yeah, but you don't have the nut like." So here's another reason why too. So steak only half of it is essential amino acids 45% and 55% is non essential amino acids, which are still good. And steak has minerals and has fat and has other good things in it.
So I'm not encouraging people to stop eating real food. 

But what we know is that our bodies do not need that amount of nonessential amino acids. So when we eat the steak, there's a large portion of the non essential amino acids that we don't even use, that instead get converted into glucose and into urea. They just simply don't get used. We can't use them all. 

So if you eat whole foods and you supplement some with an essential amino acid supplement like this, what you can do is you optimize the amount of the non essential amino acids that you're getting from your whole food diet and not trying to eat that much more protein, which you can't actually fully use all the non essential amino acids in there.

Luke Storey: [01:30:12] Really a piece is interesting because a few months ago and I hope to God he got over this phase, but if my dad had talked to me. He goes, "I went to the doctor. I'm having too much uric acid" because he's just not carnivore but he is potatoes guy and so he's having kidney problems. And so the doctor said, "I got to go vegan. He's going to eat a vegan diet now." Dad, if you're listening, that was so cute. I didn't correct him. I'm going to correct him now on air.

Angelo Keely: [01:30:37] You got to tell him about, yes.

Luke Storey: [01:30:39] Yeah. But he's crushing tons of steak because that's what feels good and taste good or whatever. But that uric acid downstream, when you're having to eat that much protein, especially at his age, which I think he just turned 79, to keep the muscle mass and to stay strong, you're having to eat a lot of protein, but you're deriving less benefit from it and getting all that urea.

Angelo Keely: [01:31:00] Exactly. And so we didn't formulate this product for this specific use case, but most of the research now coming out is actually around therapeutic uses of essential amino acids for elderly adults and specifically people with forms of kidney disease.

Luke Storey: [01:31:16] Oh, no shit.

Angelo Keely: [01:31:16] Because there used to be a myth that higher protein diets would create kidney disease. It's been completely disproven. I won't go through all that studies, but there's absolutely no sign of that. That said, if you have some form of kidney disease or early kidney issues, then consuming too much protein, what happens is you simply can't use all the amino acids and so your body has to process them out and it creates this extra uric acid. 

But if you consume the essential amino acids, it doesn't because you're not-- Here's the simplest way of describing it. So with your dad, his muscle is being broken down all the time. And then it's rebuilding. So actually in the final protein that makes up his muscle, it's not the only the nine essential. It's all 20. It includes the 11 nonessential.

And that's why you don't necessarily need to be eating so much of a whole food protein and the nonessential because when it breaks down in the amino acid pool, there are those nonessential amino acids. And then when you introduce new essential amino acids, it reuses those to rebuild the muscle. And thus there's less of a load of creation of more ammonia and urea on your dad's final byproduct.

Luke Storey: [01:32:27] Dude, I just got a marketing idea for you. You could have the same aminos product, but just have a geriatric. For your parents. But I'm going to send him some because I don't know--

Angelo Keely: [01:32:39] He should check with his doctor to make sure, but I bet if he checks it out with his doctor-- and I can send you a book, I'll send you a book and some research specifically on this so we can talk about with this doctor. But I think it's a way to not have to go vegan but maybe not eat as much steak.

Luke Storey: [01:32:55] Yeah. My concern is I'm just going, dude, he's about my size. I'm like, "What are you going to eat to get enough calories doing that?"

Angelo Keely: [01:33:03] He'd get enough calories.

Luke Storey: [01:33:05] He can. Just not enough protein, I guess.

Angelo Keely: [01:33:08] I think protein is really the thing. That is the risk and that's one of the weird negative feedback loops if you end up in that situation is you've got the sensitivity. So you shouldn't be trying to eat as much protein, but then it's going to make you like you're older like you're 79 years old, so you're going to start to waste away muscular early. And you're going be that much more susceptible to other diseases and issues that arise.

Luke Storey: [01:33:32] Hot damn.

Angelo Keely: [01:33:33] But you can eat beans and rice. There are grains and legumes you can combine for your protein needs. I don't know if he likes those or how his digestion will.

Luke Storey: [01:33:44] I am very curious. I'm going to visit him in a couple of weeks. I'm going to watch him. What are you eating? Because my whole life, all he's eating is meat.

Angelo Keely: [01:33:50] Meat and potatoes.

Luke Storey: [01:33:51] Yeah. Big hunter, just the whole thing. One of the most powerful tools I've used over the past 25 years of self healing is the practice of rituals and habits. If I can train myself to repeat something that's really effective, eventually it becomes automatic. So naturally, I'm always interested in using my ritual time wisely by stacking as many positive benefits as possible into the shortest window of time. 

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All right. So I want to go with this. You covered a lot of the questions I have. Thank you. And your super knowledge-- I knew you were knowledgeable about this, but I'm like, "Dude, you really know your shit." This is fun. I'm learning a lot. What about these amino soy sauce?

Angelo Keely: [01:35:58] Oh, I love--

Luke Storey: [01:35:59] This is like old school health food store. The salad bar, those have liquid aminos brags or something and I always thought it just tastes a little funky. So I never really got on board with it. But what are those aminos, for example, if you happen to know?

Angelo Keely: [01:36:11] So those, they actually take soy and they break it down into its constituent parts, into the individual amino acids. And that is really what it is. It's basically through, they use a certain kind of acid to break down the soybeans, whereas with soy sauce, they actually combine it with wheat and some other sugar to ferment it to develop the amino acids more through this fermentation process, through the braggs. It's like they're breaking down the constituent parts. So they both come from soy and they actually both are full of amino acids.

Luke Storey: [01:36:45] Oh, wow. Okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:36:47] What's interesting is actually amino acids themselves are the-- oftentimes in mini foods that you try, they are much of the bitter, sour and umami flavors in foods.

Luke Storey: [01:37:00] So because your aminos taste like kool-aid that they are not umami at all.

Angelo Keely: [01:37:07] Well, it's a lot of work to try too.

Luke Storey: [01:37:10] How did you get them to taste good? I want to know this because I've taken this essential amino acid powders, and stuff like that, just white powders. And just really, really hard to put in a smoothie or you just kind of got to put it in water and like, "Oh." It'd be a real tough sell for most people.

Angelo Keely: [01:37:27] Yes.

Luke Storey: [01:37:27] They were very committed and really understood how fundamental these are. How did you guys make them taste good without putting a bunch of weird shit in there?

Angelo Keely: [01:37:35] Tons of iteration. It's really just tons of iteration and being willing to invest more in the flavor profiles. I think honestly, like people who do artificial flavor type stuff and sucralose and all kinds of other gross things, you can also cover stuff up pretty well. But if you're trying to do something that's very clean label and not use synthetics and solvents and the gross stuff, it just takes willing to have a budget for what your flavor is going to cost and I made a lot.

Luke Storey: [01:38:05] Did you guys have iterations early on that were super nasty tasting?

Angelo Keely: [01:38:08] Yeah, yeah, horrible. I mean, anyone who's tried our aminos back in the day, they were not as good as they are now.

Luke Storey: [01:38:14] All right.

Angelo Keely: [01:38:14] Yeah, it's taken a lot of time to keep working on it. And-- 

Luke Storey: [01:38:19] In terms of the ingredients you guys use a stevia extract and then there's a lime flavor and berry flavors. And you have natural flavors, and I'm going to put you on the spot here. But I posted an Organifi product that I love, Organifi Gold a couple of days ago on my Instagram because I make this really cool drink with raw milk. And I was like, "This is awesome."

And I took a snap of the ingredient deck, reishi mushroom, turmeric, ginger, all this great stuff. And then a few people Dm me, are like, "What about the natural flavors?" And I was like, "It's organic. It's USDA, 100% organic products, whatever the natural flavors are, I had to assume are okay." And I reached out to them and they explained it and I was like, "Yeah, I was right. It's all fine."

But the natural flavors to me is always a little bit of a red flag because I read one of Michael Pollan's books years ago where he went to these chemical factories in New Jersey and found out that quotes, "natural flavors" are these really gnarly chemicals. And they're basically the food and supplement industry has lobbied to be able to call things that are actually artificial flavors, natural flavors. And it's this kind of ambiguous subcategory of a micro ingredient that you see in a lot of stuff. Do you have any insight into that?

Angelo Keely: [01:39:34] Yeah. 

Luke Storey: [01:39:35] Okay. Tell me about that because people ask me and I'm like, "It's a cost benefit ratio for me. It's like, "Okay, even if the Organifi Gold had like bad natural flavors, there's 99.9% of what's in there is really good for me. So I would personally take one for the team, even if there was like a caramel flavor or something that was less than awesome, I think I'm going to get more benefit than I am harmed. So what's the deal with natural flavors and sweeteners and stuff like that?

Angelo Keely: [01:40:03] Yeah, so I'll say a couple of things to start. Number one, I feel very confident and safe and healthy taking all of the different flavored products that we make. And I give them to my kids and I was raised by very, very kooky health nut parents who burned it into me to, like, "Read every label and ask every question and be a skeptic." That doesn't mean anyone else should take them. I'm just saying that.

And secondly, I also understand and respect people choosing not to want to take natural flavors. And for that reason we offer a capsule form. And in the protein we offer an unflavored protein. And even source that protein that we make, I must've tasted 20 different proteins. Look through so many spec sheets to find a protein that was awesome, totally unflavored that doesn't need any flavoring.

And I can just drink that protein with water and it tastes like milk almost. For people who want that and who they just don't even want to deal with any kind of cost benefit analysis, then you can choose that. I think the way you summed it up, though, is actually like somewhat accurate. What I would say is that with natural flavors, there's a variation of what that can mean.

With natural flavors, it means it has to come from something natural originally. And they have different tinctures and essence and extracts and like different ways of basically getting the flavor out of the original fruit. They also are ways of creating natural flavors that come from animal products. You can ask companies and then some will tell you, some won't tell you. I can tell you ours all come from plants. So our natural flavors actually come from--

Luke Storey: [01:41:37] Not like beaver's butts?

Angelo Keely: [01:41:40] Beaver butts is like the classic one. Yeah. Ours come from plants. They come from real plants, but they don't necessarily have to. Also, there's different techniques that companies can use to try to get that flavor out. As you can imagine, the less money that someone wants to spend on a flavor system, they're going to use cheaper methods to get it out and likely chemicals, and-- 

Luke Storey: [01:42:04] Solvents.

Angelo Keely: [01:42:05] Solvents. Gross stuff, the stuff you're not going to like as much. And if you're willing to invest more in developing a higher quality natural flavor, it is that much closer to the original plant and it uses natural substances to get it. If something is organic or in some cases if something is organic suitable, which doesn't actually get labeled then as organic, but uses processes that are the same as what would get an organic label, those are ways that you can achieve getting a natural flavor that tastes good and doesn't have a bunch of weird gross stuff in it that you don't want. So natural flavors is a pretty big bucket.

Luke Storey: [01:42:39] Yeah.

Angelo Keely: [01:42:40] And again, I can understand people being like, "Well, I don't want to participate in that bucket at all. Or yeah, I'll buy natural flavors from Organifi, from Kion, from these brands that I trust and I know. And--

Luke Storey: [01:42:53] That's my stance on it and--

Angelo Keely: [01:42:55] That's why I am at on it. But I also have more insider information about it.

Luke Storey: [01:43:00] No, that's cool. I've always wondered about that because I remember reading that book and I was like, "They're all bad, don't ever touch them." But then again, like, I'm also the guy. I'll admit I'm human. I'll be driving around and I'm like, it would be awesome right now is some peanut M&Ms. I've talked about this on my podcast a bunch of times, and I was like, "Don't do it" and have this little inner battle. And it's like, "You only live once, man." I am like, "I can't be that perfect. I'm doing so many things right."

Angelo Keely: [01:43:25] That's what I mean every--

Luke Storey: [01:43:26] And once in a while, I just got to go, "Whatever, it's good enough." But I don't own a supplement company that has stringent guidelines in terms of that. But the natural flavors, I think the tricky one there and like natural flavors, natural coloring, it's the ambiguity. If I had a supplement company, I think I would have a whole paragraph on the side of the bottle that's like, "Here's the deal with natural flavors. Here's how ours are extracted. There's no hexane," but whatever. 

I would have a spiel for nuts like me that are very discerning and those few people that Dm on Instagram, like, here's your answer. When I hit up Organic Food, they were like, "Yeah, we can explain it here." And it was something to the effect of what you just said. And I was like, "Okay, cool. I'm sold" because I have a responsibility when I promote brands too. I don't want to promote things that could harm people obviously.

Angelo Keely: [01:44:14] I feel like that's the other really big point. Well, you made two really important points. One is around the perfectionism, which I have a much higher standard, I would say, for products that we're going to make and we're going to sell to a lot of other people, ensuring that it's something that I feel really comfortable giving to them. I do also eat out at restaurants sometimes, there's no way that I would buy that oil at my house.

I'm so sensitive about oils, but it's like, "Man," we went camping and we stopped at this nice steak house. But I'm sure whatever, they cooked that hamburger. But it's like I sometimes do that, but I wouldn't put that in one of our products. That said, this whole kind of push towards perfectionism that you need to be perfect, Luke. And like, Luke, why would you even endorse this? Or do you know what's in that, etc."

I mean, I do think you have a certain responsibility to understand the products if you're talking about them, know what's going on, etc. and it's like people are trying to find something wrong with every little thing you're going to do. And go back again. I respect people if they don't want to take natural flavors. 100 we're respected, and that's why we have products that don't have them in it. And if it's not something you want to do, there's another way to get it.

Luke Storey: [01:45:29] That's smart. It's great options. That just eliminates the issue.

Angelo Keely: [01:45:33] I was going to say on the communication point though too, is around marketing. We don't always do. There's a lot of things to do when you're running a business. We don't do the best job of articulating every last point about every little detail we do. We honestly are more focused on trying to make really awesome products, then communicate every little awesome thing that we do.

Because it's also hard to get that on a label. And then I already went through last iteration of the label. It's got to go through regulatory and then this, and then it's like, "Oh, I know now we made this improvement to the product. And now we can say this new thing about it. It's hard to keep up with telling everyone all the time all the awesome things you're trying to do with the company. 

And our focus more is on trying to make the product awesome. And then if someone asks us, we have the information, we'll talk to you about it. We'll answer your question.

Luke Storey: [01:46:21] Yeah, well, you don't have to answer it to whoever heard this because I'm the guy that's going to ask the tough questions. What about getting enough of these essential amino acids? So we know that's problematic, especially for older people to get enough of it to retain that protein synthesis and lean muscle mass. 

What about stuff like bone broth or gelatin protein? Because whenever I've taken that, I'm like, "Oh, I'm getting tons of amino acids." Am I really or is it not as awesome as I think?

Angelo Keely: [01:46:56] So there's little subtlety in the protein. I'm going to handle the gelatin and collagen first because those are really closely related. Collagen and gelatin basically are the same thing. Gelatin is just hydrolyzed. It's basically like a cooked down version of the collagen.

Luke Storey: [01:47:09] What? 

Angelo Keely: [01:47:09] Of collagen, yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:47:09] Oh, I didn't know that.

Angelo Keely: [01:47:11] Yeah. And they come from the collagen of animals, so like bones, joints hide, same stuff that is collagen in our body.

Luke Storey: [01:47:21] All right.

Angelo Keely: [01:47:21] Bones, joints-- 

Luke Storey: [01:47:22] Horses.

Angelo Keely: [01:47:23] Skin. Yeah. So which my mom used to like scare me when I was a kid I shouldn't eat gello because we were pescatarian. It comes from horses or whatever. But it doesn't. You're not eating horses if you eat gelatine most likely.

Luke Storey: [01:47:38] I hope not.

Angelo Keely: [01:47:38] So gelatin and collagen are interesting in that they are not a traditional complete protein. So they will not give you the benefit of a steak or whey protein or even some plant proteins that are combined in a special way or essential amino acids. They simply do not have all the essential amino acids at proper ratios. 

What they do have is a lot of glycine, proline, and hydroxy proline, which are very cool, awesome, non essential amino acids that specifically support joints, skin, hair, nails. So if you really want to support your joints, hair, skin, nails, the idea of mega dosing with this other animals collagen to support that, it makes generally logical sense. 

It wouldn't necessarily be true though. I always want to challenge that. Like people think, "Oh, if I take like this other animals collagen it's going to make my collagen better." But in human studies they have shown that it does.

Luke Storey: [01:48:43]  Cool.

Angelo Keely: [01:48:43] So consuming higher amounts of those will support with skin, hair--

Luke Storey: [01:48:46] And that would be true of bone broth too, which has the collagen and gelatin in there.

Angelo Keely: [01:48:52] So this is a more nuanced thing about bone broth. If you're really just cooking the bones, if all the meat's been scraped off and you're just cooking down the bones and extracting that, it is going to function a lot like gelatin or collagen.

If they leave meat on the actual bone and they're cooking that down, so there's actual beef muscle protein that's included in the final product, then it's going to have some amount of essential amino acids.

Luke Storey: [01:49:19] Oh, okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:49:20] But generally it's not going to have that much. I think even in very popular products like that where they do that maybe like 30% is a beef protein. So still if you're eating bone broth or collagen or gelatin, just think I'm supporting my joints, my hair, my skin, my nails.

Luke Storey: [01:49:38] Got it. Okay, cool.

Angelo Keely: [01:49:40] I'm not supporting overall muscle protein synthesis.

Luke Storey: [01:49:43] All right. I'm going to give you my morning smoothie and you critique it. Okay?

Angelo Keely: [01:49:46] Okay.

Luke Storey: [01:49:46] Actually, you probably won't, because there's two Kion products in it. Because I'm not hungry in the morning, but I feel much better if I eat a lot of protein and fat right away. I used to drink buttered coffee and go half the day and just be full of cortisol, and I was psycho. I didn't know it at the time. I was like, "This is awesome. I don't have to eat anymore." I was like kind of a borderline eating disorder.

My morning smoothies, two pastured egg yolks, two huge scoops of this Kion whey protein, one scoop of the Kion aminos, two scoops of the Nootopia colagenian like mushroom collagen, protein powder, a little bit of MCT oil and a big scoop of collagen protein. Yeah, I think that's it. Oh, and your creatine.

Angelo Keely: [01:50:40] Okay.

Luke Storey: [01:50:40] Did I bring that up here?

Angelo Keely: [01:50:41] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:50:41] I have the creatine right here, and one scoop of the creatine. And I feel freaking amazing on that. Am I missing anything in that or is that--

Angelo Keely: [01:50:50] That's a lot. I think I mean--

Luke Storey: [01:50:54] Or is it overkill?

Angelo Keely: [01:50:55] That's what I would say. From an amino acid consumption kind of goal, I think it's great. It might be overkill.

Luke Storey: [01:51:04] Okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:51:04] And here's how it might be overkill. But first of all, I would say is the most important thing, Luke, is that you feel great. So if you feel great, man, just ignore everything I'm about to say to you because it doesn't matter, dude. It's like, there's nothing you're doing that's bad.

Luke Storey: [01:51:19] Okay. That's good.

Angelo Keely: [01:51:20] So ideally, if you want to feel great, the amount of protein that you should eat on a daily basis, or if you backed into it some amount of amino acids at a 3x or 4x potential based on your age would be 1 gram of protein per ideal body weight.

Luke Storey: [01:51:42] So this always lose me because there's math involved. So let's just say I'll Google like how much protein should I eat? And then it's like per kilogram of body, I'm like lost.

Angelo Keely: [01:51:50] Let's just make it simple.

Luke Storey: [01:51:52] I'm 185 pounds I think.

Angelo Keely: [01:51:54] Okay. And do you like that weight?

Luke Storey: [01:51:56] I would wish 10 of it was not around my--

Angelo Keely: [01:52:00] Great. Let's call it 175.

Luke Storey: [01:52:02] Okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:52:02] Okay. So that's your ideal weight is 175. Ideally you would eat no kilograms of pounds 175 grams of protein a day.

Luke Storey: [01:52:14] That sounds like a lot.

Angelo Keely: [01:52:15] It sounds like a lot. But you're eating a lot right here.

Luke Storey: [01:52:18] How much is in two scoops of the Kion?

Angelo Keely: [01:52:20] 40. So you're eating a lot.

Luke Storey: [01:52:21] I'm getting 80.

Angelo Keely: [01:52:23] 40 plus, if you do that and you count like one scoop of that is like is like 55 plus, the collagen is not complete and the egg-- egg yolks, that's just fat. I mean, you're getting a lot. But let me finish because I think--

Luke Storey: [01:52:36] That's going to help. This is great. And I'm not trying to be selfish here. Hopefully this will benefit someone.

Angelo Keely: [01:52:40] I think this is very--

Luke Storey: [01:52:41] Someone listening who is trying to figure this out too.

Angelo Keely: [01:52:43] Yeah, I think this is very super practical, very useful information for literally everyone, whether you're 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, or you're athletic or you're not. All I would say is if you're older, you're amino acid needs are even higher. And if you're highly active, your amino acid needs are higher because you're encouraging more muscle protein breakdown when you do tons of physical activity. 

But let's just say overall, everyone should be aiming for-- oh, sorry. Last thing I'd say too is if you're trying to lose weight, increasing your protein intake short term is also even better. So go even higher than this. But let's just say everyone generally aim for 1 gram of protein or the equivalent of 1 gram of protein in terms of muscle protein synthesis per pound of ideal body weight. So 175 grams is what you want to eat every day.

Luke Storey: [01:53:33] Okay.

Angelo Keely: [01:53:33] Then ideally you would break that up into five or six meals. The reason for that, but you don't have to, man. And this is what I'm saying. It's like don't get perfect. You don't have to is at some point, your body can't use all the amino acids right at that moment to stimulate new muscle protein synthesis. And so then what it does is it ends up converting it into glucose for you to use for energy as ATP and urea.

Now, if you're healthy, you don't have to worry about any of this. And if you like eating protein more than you like eating carbs or fat, it's a totally fine choice in terms of what you use for calories during the day to fuel your body. But if you divide that by five or by six times, then that's kind of the optimal amount of amino acids and protein you would eat at a time to stimulate muscle protein synthesis that then lasts three hours. That is why bodybuilders eat little things of chicken or tuna fish--

Luke Storey: [01:54:32] I always wondered about that.

Angelo Keely: [01:54:33] every three hours and they even wake up in the middle of the night and--

Luke Storey: [01:54:35] The meal prep.

Angelo Keely: [01:54:36] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:54:37] I bet gym rat buddies, they're like, I've got to get my protein in. I'm doing meal prep. And yeah, they're carrying around little Tupperware things. Yeah, I never looked into it. I was just like, "That looks hard."

Angelo Keely: [01:54:47] Yeah. So the reason for that is because basically the muscle protein synthesis spike lasts three hours. So when you consume the protein or the amino acids, it lasts for three hours. But there's only so much you can really use at one time for that. 

So optimally you would break that up into five or six times throughout the day. If that doesn't work for you and it's four, fine. If it's three, fine. Don't overthink it. So what I just note in that is if I'm not going to test my math, but if we divide 175 by five, that's a 35. Thank you.

Luke Storey: [01:55:22] You guys are impressive.

Angelo Keely: [01:55:23] Yeah, 35. So just to learn--

Luke Storey: [01:55:25] By the way, I couldn't even do that with a pen and paper. So you had your calculator? 

Angelo Keely: [01:55:25] Calculator. So just two scoops of this gives you 40 grams of protein. So taking the essential amino acids at the same time, I don't want to go too subtle signs because of the profile of the amino acids and because of your age, it is actually improving the utilisation of the protein itself, but it's a little overkill.

Instead, what I might do is another time during the day, three hours later in between meals, take 1 to 2 scoops or up to three scoops actually of Kion aminos, and then you will stimulate another muscle protein synthesis spike.

Luke Storey: [01:56:09] Right. I'm doing this.

Angelo Keely: [01:56:10] Yeah. So basically, instead I think the easiest thing for most people who eat three meals a day is do three solid meals a day that have 30 to 50 grams of protein, depending on what your weight is. And then two more times a day take essential amino acids.

Luke Storey: [01:56:28] And with it--

Angelo Keely: [01:56:29] Or take a protein shake if you don't want to do essential amino acids.

Luke Storey: [01:56:32] But these amino acids, you can just stir them in water, right?

Angelo Keely: [01:56:35] I think they're delicious in water. Yeah. We worked really hard to make them drinkable in water. Stirring doesn't always work well because they're not agglomerated, which is a whole another supplement rabbit hole. We don't like nano them, like break them out into smaller molecules. If you shake them.

Luke Storey: [01:56:53] Or put the--

Angelo Keely: [01:56:54] If you shake them in a shaker with water and with some ice, they get perfectly dissolved. But if you try to stir them with a stir, spoon it's kind of hard.

Luke Storey: [01:57:01] I like this and this is my next question, actually. I do the aminos with some of the Organifi red, the beet root powder stuff, the berries.

Angelo Keely: [01:57:13] That's great as a pre-workout.

Luke Storey: [01:57:14] That's what I'm doing.

Angelo Keely: [01:57:15] Yeah, because that's going to really increase your nitric oxide.

Luke Storey: [01:57:18] I shake it up and then right before I get on the airex machine I pound a hydro shot. It's like super vasodilator kind of thing nitric oxide boost situation. I mean it's no joke how much harder I can work with those two things. So that's my little routine. But I put it in a thermos and I shake it up and I kind of sip it on the way to the gym.

And then when I'm there, I pound it right before I get on the machine and then during in between my sets and stuff. And that seems to work really well. But that was one of my questions. I just made that up. But that makes sense.

Angelo Keely: [01:57:51] That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense to combine an inner booster with essential amino acids. So the inner booster basically is opening your blood vessels. And essential amino acids do that also to some degree. But the primary role of the essential amino acids before, during and after your workout is that they are going to naturally support energy production at the site of the muscles themselves. 

They're also going to prevent muscle protein breakdown so you won't get a sore and thus you'll have more stamina and more endurance. And they will stimulate muscle protein synthesis so basically like 2 to 3 x the benefits of your exercise. So you can take them before, during, and after.

Luke Storey: [01:58:34] Yeah, that's interesting. You mentioned being sore. Do you know the airex machines? These things, it's like an AI robot that's fighting you. There is no way you could lift that much free weight without hurting yourself, just period. It's so cool. But unfortunately, they're like 60 grand.

So you can find the airex machines at different gyms and stuff. But anyway, I go over there because they let me sneak in there on Sunday mornings and work out with a couple of people. And when I used to go in and maybe I'm just getting stronger and a little more fit from just going every Sunday, every Sunday, I'm pretty good at the compliance.

But when I would push that weight really hard, like the leg press, for example, I would get all like ringing in my ears and like I kind of have to pop my ears and just feel super funky. And then even when I would be driving home, I'm like feeling not great. I mean, I don't think it was like, dangerous, but just working out that hard. But when I got on the routine of doing these aminos and the beats, all the things I said, I never get sore and I never get that like ear ringing, weird, like your head's going to pop thing. I feel totally fine and I'm not even that tired during it. My heart rate's not even that high. It's crazy. I'm doing more weight all the time. 

Angelo Keely: [01:59:46] In terms of the recovery and the soreness, it is the essential amino acid.

Luke Storey: [01:59:49] Oh, score, bro. Nice work.

Angelo Keely: [01:59:50] Yeah. So like, really hardcore athletes, CrossFit athletes who are--
all different types of people use essential amino acids, but those really hard core athletes, that is probably where they get the most benefit from it is because they're eating tons of these hardcore, bodybuilders and CrossFit people eating tons of protein. 

When they start using something like Kion aminos, they see incredible improvements in their recovery, just like way less sauce weight, easier to get back to the gym than last time.

Luke Storey: [02:00:18] Wow, that's cool. What's the deal with these, speaking of gyms and like Gym Bro's, remember back in the day, guys that were trying to build muscle would be taking these branched chain amino acids. What's up with those?

Angelo Keely: [02:00:31] So branched chain--

Luke Storey: [02:00:32] And GNC kind of style stuff?

Angelo Keely: [02:00:35] Yeah. So this is an interesting story and science evolving and us learning more. And then supplement companies and marketing just continuing to sell the stuff that's been disproven. So branch chain amino acids are actually three of the essential amino acids. So if you were to just take three of the most prevalent amino acids in this formula, but not include the other six. 

And the science behind this is that what they started to discover was, I've been simplifying it up until now that there's these nine essential amino acids and that's what stimulates muscle, protein synthesis, etc. There's one primary essential amino acid called leucine, which is a branched chain, amino acid, and then ISO Leucine and Valine, which are the two other branched chain amino acids, which they're called branched just because it's the way their carbon skeleton is designed, the way that their molecules are designed. They have this branch. 

They are the three that are extremely important in kicking off muscle protein synthesis and sustaining it, but they literally do not work without the other six amino acids. So they discovered in isolation in these little mechanistic studies or combining BCAs with other protein sources or in these really specific training environments that it would prevent muscle protein breakdown or stimulate muscle protein synthesis. 

But then over the last 20 years, 30 years, it's been shown over and over again that if you don't consume the other six at the same time, then there's absolutely no increase in muscle protein synthesis. But they just keep selling a man. 

Luke Storey: [02:02:10] I think that's the kind of the GNC stores. There's kind of just the basic stuff. Or even if you go to CVS or Rite Aid and you go in the vitamin section, you see stuff like this where it's kind of people that are just, "Oh, I heard, that's good for you. Oh, I'll take that." But they're not geeks like us that are really going to get into the nuance of it. Maybe that's why this stuff is--

Angelo Keely: [02:02:31] And even still some brands, very big brands, still market their product as-- these are brands I wouldn't buy because they're full of artificial flavors and artificial sweeteners and just chunkier products, but they'll actually market it as BCAAs, but then they include all the EAs. And because the science has been proven that it's--

Luke Storey: [02:02:48] That's funny.

Angelo Keely: [02:02:49] But it doesn't work without the other ones.

Luke Storey: [02:02:50] That's funny.

Angelo Keely: [02:02:51] But there's still--

Luke Storey: [02:02:52] Because the BCAAs is like a catch--

Angelo Keely: [02:02:55] There's a narrative or that's what you're supposed to take.

Luke Storey: [02:02:58] Well, all right, for those listening, if you guys buy this time, you're probably like, "Oh, I want to try these aminos." If you guys go to lukestorey.com/kion, these guys have a nice landing page they've made for me and if you go there, you're going to automatically save up to 20%, lukestorey.com/kion. I highly recommend by the way, not just because you're here, I'd be saying it even if you weren't here. 

If you were lucky enough to hear Episode 389 with Dr. Chris Rinsch, you'll understand how important mitochondria is to your energy levels and overall health. So I'm always looking for ways to upgrade my mitochondria and age as slowly as possible through supplements and bio hacks. My latest obsession in this category is something called Mitopure, a breakthrough post biotic that activates your body's natural defence against aging and assist in mitophagy or the clearing out of old bogus mitochondria.

It's the first product to offer a precise dose of a compound derived from pomegranate called Urolithin A, which is a truly groundbreaking discovery. In fact, Mitopure is the result of over 10 years of research by scientists at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. You can get your daily dose of 500 milligrams of Mitopure by using the berry powder, which I add to my smoothies, yogurt and other drinks. 

And they also have a vanilla protein powder for muscle building and also soft gels for on the go convenience. This is a powerful and super easy way to upgrade mitochondrial function, increase cellular energy and improve muscle strength. If that sounds like a good plan to you, here's what you do to get on a Mitopure subscription. Visit timelinenutrition.com. And right now is a special offer for you Life Stylist listeners. You can use the code LUKE10, to get 10% off any two, four, or 12 month Mitopure plan at timelinenutrition.com. 

Let me see, I've got some more stuff in here. In terms of the other proteins, I'm going to digress a bit here just because there's one question, and I wanted to see if you find this to be a fact. Hemp protein when it comes to plant based proteins has been one that I would say I'd tolerate more. So if I go get a smoothie over here at Juice Land down the street, if it has rice protein, I have them swap it out. And I'm like, "Oh, it feels good. I digested, okay."

But I've heard that there can be problems with heavy metal contamination, with hemp protein specifically. Is there any truth to that, them sucking up metals out of the soil and then being contaminated?

Angelo Keely: [02:05:37] Yeah. I'm just going to bum you out though, on a way bigger level talking about this. So naturally occurring in the ground with many plants, there are heavy metals. And I said, I'm going to bum you out because chocolate is the biggest case of this.

Luke Storey: [02:05:55] Come on.

Angelo Keely: [02:05:55] Chocolate is very high in heavy metals.

Luke Storey: [02:05:58] I just learned that cacao is also really high in oxalate. Damn. Come on.

Angelo Keely: [02:06:05] So I would just say like anything that grows in the ground is likely going to be high in heavy metals, which honestly is also one of the reasons why I've strayed from trying to make too many botanical based products with Kion, is because they're more difficult to formulate. And if you want to include a bunch of stuff or like mix these really cool components, you're going to end up hitting lead levels that I'm not stoked about.

Luke Storey: [02:06:32] Yeah.

Angelo Keely: [02:06:33] So if you take that idea and think, hey, even a bar of chocolate, there's bars of chocolate, well, there are certain types of legislation or deals with companies where they don't have to label it like certain chocolate companies, etc. But I think there's like certain chocolate in California, it's even labeled as Prop 65 because it's--

Luke Storey: [02:06:53] Wow.

Angelo Keely: [02:06:53] Just cause it's like a bar of chocolate. It does have this level of lead. And I know if you live in California, like tons of stuff has Prop 65. But then if you take that idea and you apply it to botanicals or to protein powders, if you want to have a few grams of some type of botanical, it is just going to have a lot of heavy metals in it.

If you then try to take rice or pea or hemp and you want to extract all the protein from it, basically concentrating this thing that typically has all these other things in it, carbohydrates, for example, you're concentrating heavy metals as well. So when you take plant proteins, they're just naturally going to be higher in these heavy metals.
Now, I present all that though, again to say I think if people really research it, they'll realize that, again, this is true for like anything that's highly concentrated and grows from the ground. I mean, not everything, but I mean, again, if you're eating like whole produce that grows from the ground, well, you're getting all these other component parts in it and fiber, etc.

Luke Storey: [02:07:57] And metals would be diluted.

Angelo Keely: [02:07:58] It'll be diluted. But then if you boil down all these heads of broccoli and all I want is this one little thing from the broccoli, you're naturally getting a lot of this.

Luke Storey: [02:08:07] Ayahuasca has a lot of it. Thinking of something that you boil down for a really, really long time. Buyer beware.

Angelo Keely: [02:08:16] Maybe Ayahuasca is really just a heavy metal allergic reaction that people are going through.

Luke Storey: [02:08:22] Totally. All right. That's good information. Okay, so you guys have a whey protein. And as you said, you go to the store, there's a zillion whey proteins. Are they all created equal?

Angelo Keely: [02:08:37] No.

Luke Storey: [02:08:37] And why is whey protein a good protein versus like bone broth protein? And we talked about collagen and gelatin protein and stuff like that. Why is whey that I guess comes from milk originally?

Angelo Keely: [02:08:47] Yeah, whey comes from milk.

Luke Storey: [02:08:48] Why is it awesome?

Angelo Keely: [02:08:50] So there's two main proteins that come from milk that are considered awesome one's whey, one's casein. And whey has become more popular because it's more tolerable to more people. And even in studies where they where they show how well muscle protein synthesis works over multiple periods throughout the day, whey is superior.

Casein had has a longer burn. So like super biohacker bodybuilders were like take casein before they go to bed to stimulate a longer muscle protein.

Luke Storey: [02:09:19] Casein is the thing they used to say many people are allergic to in dairy?

Angelo Keely: [02:09:22] The best thing too is whey is more tolerable by more people. So whey though, basically has the most ideal essential amino acid profile and is highly digestible across all different protein sources that exist in nature. So that's why whey has become so popular, because it's literally just if you want to get protein, it's the most digestible, best profile of essential amino acids. 

Then within whey there is whey concentrate, which is the least processed form, or you can get whey isolate. We produced a whey isolate. And the difference of whey isolate is when I say processed, it's basically just filtered more. It's a cold filtering process that removes the carbohydrates. 

So what you end up with is something with less of the carbohydrates and virtually lactose free. So if you have any type of lactose allergy, most people can totally tolerate a whey protein isolate. They can't tolerate a whey protein concentrate.

Luke Storey: [02:10:25] Okay.

Angelo Keely: [02:10:26] So that's the main difference between concentrate and isolate. And then there's just like pure quality. what's the quality of the cows and the milk that you are getting it from?

Luke Storey: [02:10:36] That is our huge concern.

Angelo Keely: [02:10:38] Is it grass fed?

Luke Storey: [02:10:39] Antibiotic?

Angelo Keely: [02:10:39] And a corn. What's the profile? So in creating this product, it's basically a project of sourcing. It's just deep, deep, deep dive sourcing on what is the highest quality, grass-fed whey protein isolate that's available on the market. And that's what we did. So we just looked for that. We checked out everyone who could hit the specs. They're really only like a couple. And then you taste them and you see which ones best and then that's the one you go with. 

Then on the flavouring profile for different types of protein powders, well, there's one other thing. Sometimes people will add additional digestive enzymes into the protein. We're just trying to make the cleanest, simplest protein we could make. If you want to add additional digestive enzymes, you can do that, we don't think--

Luke Storey: [02:11:28] Yeah, I do that in my morning smoothie. I was forgetting something. I'll put some BiOptimizers. I just empty capsules into the smoothie.

Angelo Keely: [02:11:33] That makes sense. For us we're trying to make something cleaner and simpler, so we--

Luke Storey: [02:11:38] I think it's just like three ingredients which I like. I like when I go-- 

Angelo Keely: [02:11:41] That's what I want.

Luke Storey: [02:11:42] Like the fewer ingredients, the better, because to me, it speaks to the closer it is to an actual food.

Angelo Keely: [02:11:50] And that's exactly what I wanted. I just want the simplest thing possible. So then it has organic, natural flavors, very simple ones, chocolate and ones vanilla. And then we added pink Himalayan salt. And that salt-- oh, sorry. And the sweetener, the stevia sweetener. So yeah, it has basically protein, stevia, salt, and the natural flavor.

Luke Storey: [02:12:17] What are some-- and some people listening might find this question pedestrian, but maybe some will benefit from it. What are some of the less awesome sweeteners that will be used in protein powders and various things?

Angelo Keely: [02:12:29] Well, I think it's--

Luke Storey: [02:12:31] You mentioned sucralose?

Angelo Keely: [02:12:32] Yeah, I think it's sucralose and aspartame. It's the artificial sweeteners. That I think are just disputed how harmful they potentially are. And this is one of those things where it's like, I was just raised thinking artificial sweeteners are bad. Stay away from them. They're really terrible. 

I think there's been really interesting recent studies that have come out comparing, there's a lot of review that I saw, like Cooperman just did a review of it, and this guy Biline, he tends to be more evidence based, anti alt health type people.

Luke Storey: [02:13:11] All alt.

Angelo Keely: [02:13:11] Yeah, all alt health, whatever it is. But it's interesting to get lots of different people's opinions on this. And a recent study came out that compared all of these. It's interesting to see which one's worse, which one's not. I just try to stay away from anything artificial. So I'm just not inclined to do aspartame or sucralose or--

Luke Storey: [02:13:30] I remember back in the late '90s, early 2000s, there were a couple of documentaries I used to watch all these freaky documentaries about all the bad things, fluoride in the water and all this. And there were a couple that came out on aspartame and they were terrifying. I mean, I was like, that's one thing I really-- like I said, I'll eat some M&Ms here and there and eat out at a shady restaurant once in a while.

But aspartame is pretty non-negotiable and that's something that's like MSG aspartame. There are certain things that I just really, really do my best to avoid without being too neurotic about it. But those are like red flag, red alert. Don't put it in your body. Neurotoxins.

Angelo Keely: [02:14:08] That's where I'm at.

Luke Storey: [02:14:10] Okay. Last thing I want to cover here, famous last words because I always find more is coffee. So I remember, was it the first thing you guys made?

Angelo Keely: [02:14:21] No, aminos was the first. Coffee was soon after.

Luke Storey: [02:14:25] Because I remember Ben talking about, "Oh we came up with this clean coffee." And I don't drink coffee every day, but I enjoy it a lot when I do enjoy it. And there was all this noise a few years back about mold and coffee. Dave Asprey comes out with this bulletproof coffee, and I was like, "Oh, shit. And I wonder if I go to Starbucks and drink a coffee, I'm psychotic for the next three hours."

And then I got that coffee and it was like, "Oh, I thought I was sensitive to caffeine. And then I surmised that maybe I'm just sensitive to the mycotoxins or essentially the excrement of mold in coffee. So I've always looked for mold free coffee. But then you have this other people that came out after that, they were like, "Oh, it's just a marketing scam. The mold doesn't matter. It doesn't do anything. The mold is not a prevalent issue and yada yada."

So you have in the coffee world, aside from pesticides and just roasting and all the other things that make it taste good and be non-toxic. But maybe for people that aren't even aware of this, give us an update on where we are with like mold free coffee, because I know that when I heard about your coffee, that was a selling point and I bought some. Cool. I trust Ben. He's a discerning guy. He Knows his shit. So I got it and I was like, "Great. It's tested for mold." That's all I need to know and it's organic. Those were the two criteria. So what's up with the mold and coffee issue right now?

Angelo Keely: [02:15:39] So I would say big picture, when we try to make our coffee, we're thinking overall how to just make the cleanest coffee we can make with the least amount of other weird stuff in it, and that is both pesticides and mold and any other types of toxins that could potentially be introduced during the process of production. Oh yeah. I mean, like growing it, harvesting and production of the coffee.

In terms of mold, what I would say is that the critiques of people saying, hey, it's not as big a deal as people think. On one side, they're right. On one side, it's not like all the coffee. It's not like all specialty grade organic coffee is full of mold. It's not as big of a risk, I think, as or as prevalent as maybe people tried to paint as a story in the past. 

I think if you're buying really cheap coffee, I can't-- I'm not attacking Starbucks. I don't know. But I mean, they're buying a lot of coffee from a lot of different places in the world. They have a pretty intense business pressures. All huge coffee companies have pretty big business pressures to just make sure there's coffee in the cups at every single airport in the world. So if they had to ensure that there was absolutely no mold ever in their coffee, I'm sure that would be just hard because they're selling a lot of coffee. And they're mixing a lot of different coffee beans. 

So I don't know why when you drink Starbucks coffee, you didn't feel great. I don't like Starbucks coffee. I think it tastes gross and I also get wigged out when I drink it, but I have no idea why that is. But if I try to make a really clean coffee, there are ways to ensure that there's not going to be mold in it and to ensure that there's not going to be pesticides in it. What's really interesting is just because something's organic doesn't mean that there definitely will not be any pesticides in the final product.

Luke Storey: [02:17:25] Come on.

Angelo Keely: [02:17:26] Well, so here's--

Luke Storey: [02:17:29] Especially with coffee that's something-- I mean, I eat things that are organic out of convenience. Sometimes with coffee I'm like I wouldn't buy--

Angelo Keely: [02:17:38] Even if you are grinding it up and soaking in a water.

Luke Storey: [02:17:39] Yeah. Like, I wouldn't intentionally buy it unless I knew that it wasn't sprayed with pesticides.

Angelo Keely: [02:17:43] So first thing I want to say is I think that most people are trying their best to just do good. People aren't out there like trying to deceive people or hurt people. They're really are trying to do their best. So I think the idea behind certifications and the people that run certification programs are thinking, "Hey, there's this consumer out there that wants this product. They want it to be verified. They want to be able to trust it. Do I just trust the individual companies?"

Or how is this consumer able to decide whether or not they should trust that this product is actually what they say it is. And thus they develop certifying bodies. And these certifying bodies then develop sets of rules and they evaluate products based on those rules. And that for coffee, it could be organic, it could be for trade, it could be Rainforest Certified Alliance. There's all these different ways that they can certify coffees. All it means if a coffee ends up being certified, is that it made it through the checklist. 

Now, that checklist, as you can imagine, is a system that's made up and there's obviously going to be holes in it sometimes. So one of the things that we discovered in us trying to make the cleanest coffee that we can possibly make is to test coffee at multiple stages of the supply chain. 

So the way that we get the highest quality coffee that we can make is by sourcing from very specific farms where we know that it's organic and it's specialty grade, which means they got the checkmarks, they're not using pesticides, etc. on their coffee.
That said, these farms could be next to another farm that does use pesticides and some of those pesticides potentially get on to their farm or they spray one time and there's one lot that gets it, etc. So that is a risk that could happen. So we test for that. We also ensure that we choose farms that use mechanical dryers. This is where one potential place that mold could come in. When you're picking a lot of beans and they're wet, you can lay them out on the actual huge tarps and they just dry in the sun. 

Or you can use these mechanical drying machines that actually put the beans in and that dry them automatically. If you dry the beans right away, you're going to reduce the risk of any mold developing on them. That doesn't mean that if you dry beans on the tarps that you're going to get mold, though. It just means that if you drive the mechanical dryer, there's going to be that much less of a chance. 

So we ensure we get an organic farm, we ensure they have a mechanical dryer, and then when we import the beans into the US, we test the green beans. We test the green beans to make sure that there's absolutely no pesticides in them and that there is no mold or other types of toxins on it. 

What we started to find when we were doing our own testing on some of these beans and we won't accept them if they don't pass this, is that somehow organic beans had some trace of pesticides and we're like, "Well, how is that possible?"

Well, one thing that can happen even outside of the farming situation, is that they will take organic beans and put them in a large bag to put previous conventional green beans in. If I just put a bunch of conventional green beans in that bag that were raised with pesticides, there are traces of pesticides in that bag. And then they get on the beans themselves, which it's not like the importer is like trying to mess up the organic beans. They probably don't know. They probably don't care. They're just like someone wants to buy organic beans or packing them in the sacks, etc.

So we test at that stage. And then also things that we found is when we would bring the beans in to roasting that sometimes if a machine had been cleaned with some type of chemical component that could get off on the beans. So we also had to work through making sure that none of the machines were clean with any type of chemical solvent, which that's like you're getting pretty anal. You're getting pretty annoying.

Luke Storey: [02:21:20] All your suppliers are like, "We don't want to work with them anymore. This is just too hard."

Angelo Keely: [02:21:26] But honestly, we are by far the most annoying, the most I think particular frustrating kind of partner. But at the same time we're really cool, we're nice. We're not trying to give people a hard time when people aren't messing up. We're just like, "No, we're not going to buy that." We want to work with you. We want to get this done, but it has to hit these specs. 

So when you source from the right places, you do really good audits of wherever you're getting the coffee beans from. You test the green beans and then you're testing on the actual batches of ones Coffee's been made, you can be really certain that something didn't just get an organic stamp on it, but that we actually tested every stage of the process. 

So all that said, going back to your question about, is the mold thing a real thing? Yes, mold is on some coffees. Is it as widespread as like huge marketing hype might like to say that it is? Probably not. But if you want to be really certain that your coffee is as clean as it can possibly be, you probably just need to go with a brand that is doing multiple stages of testing and that they're actually committed to that.

And if you have mold sensitivities, then it's probably that much more important. If you're just trying to eat clean, then maybe you can get coffee at your local coffee shop sometimes and that's me. I always I mean, I only drink coffee, obviously, but I'm not afraid to drink a specialty grade organic coffee from a nice coffee shop. I'm not, like, terrified.

Luke Storey: [02:22:49] I'm in the same boat, and I definitely notice that I tend to feel much better if I go to a little hipster coffee shop and drink whatever. I don't even see if it's organic. I'm just like, I want a latte. But I don't tend to get those jitters and--

Angelo Keely: [02:23:06] Extra mustache or mustache calms you down.

Luke Storey: [02:23:09] You have to have the 1800s Cole Minor mustache, for sure. But yeah, I notice. Oh, I feel fine. I kind of track it. But if I'm in an airport and I'm like, Oh, I'm tired, I'm going to get a Starbucks, it's pretty much guaranteed I'm going to feel anxious. And like I said, for years I didn't drink coffee because I thought it was the caffeine. 

And I would tell people "I'm sensitive to caffeine." I start getting mold free coffee. I'm like, "Oh, this is amazing. It's not the coffee, it's the freaking mold." So thank you for that information. I learned a lot. Next one on coffee is, I've heard people say in the periphery of the health space that if you pre grind beans because you guys sell whole beans, which is what I get, I can't coffee. I think at one point you guys sent me a ground one and I saved it for the zombie apocalypse.

I'm not going to say I'll drink any coffee in the zombie apocalypse, but I saved it, but then I started hearing these murmurs of like, "Oh, it oxidizes." If you pre grind coffee, then these are beans, and they have these oils in them and those oils become rancid essentially like any oils would if they were exposed and they became oxidized from the air and exposure like that. What's your take on ground versus whole beans?

Angelo Keely: [02:24:18] So again, this is like a cost benefit analysis and kind of what what you want works for you? I would definitely prefer whole bean because when you grind it, it does start to oxidize and that destroys the flavor and it also it becomes a more rancid product over time. That said. One of the key components of our coffee process is that when we finally put the roasted beans into a bag, we go through a process of nitrogen flushing, which basically removes the oxygen. That's why we can sell our coffee for a longer period of time. And when you open a bag of Kion coffee, it smells so good and dank and it's like awesome coffee.

Luke Storey: [02:24:58] I think dank would be the operative word.

Angelo Keely: [02:24:59] Denk is the word. Whereas sometimes even if you buy coffee from a local coffee shop, it's like not as fresh because if they didn't roast it in the last-- basically whole beans, freshly roasted, will stay really good for like two weeks. After two weeks, they start to get kind of bad. If you nitrogen flush it, it extends it months.

Luke Storey: [02:25:17] Oh wow.

Angelo Keely: [02:25:18] If you grind-- they will actually will start to oxidize even without grinding them. The beans will just start to get gross after like two weeks. Not gross but I'm being very picky. I'm super picky about coffee. If you grind coffee, you've got about 24 hours. 

That said, some people don't have a grinder and they don't want to grind coffee. And they've always just bought ground coffee, but they care about their health. They care about having something that's organic. They want to avoid other toxins in their coffee and they don't want to have to grind it. And so for them, I would happily create a pre ground coffee. There's other things that have come up like, well, you make little curd cups where it's like in a plastic thing and I'm like hot water through a plastic?

Luke Storey: [02:26:01] I never like that either. Dude, even like coffee makers. That's why I don't have an espresso machine. It would take me too much research to find. And if anyone listening knows of an espresso machine, dude, even just cheap metals aluminum, little tubes and parts that are getting boiling water through them. Those little Keurig cups putting boiling water through a bunch of plastic, it's just a bad idea. Like in hotels, the cheap coffee makers, they're like, all made of plastic. Again, you've got to live your life. It's whatever, but it's not optimal. Put it that way.

Angelo Keely: [02:26:35] And so for me, it's like ground coffee. I don't think it's harming anyone. I think it's an inferior cup of coffee. It's not as good and it's not as fresh, but I don't think it's toxic for them. That said, like hot water through plastic. I can't and there's a lot of demand for it like a lot of clean coffee companies.

Luke Storey: [02:26:57] Thank you for not doing that. Like your edge, is like, "All right, we'll sell you some ground coffee." It's not as good as whole beans, but I'm not going to make you a little plastic toxin bomb. I got a question for you about that. So I find it to be a pain in the ass to grind my beans every time I want to have a coffee. So I bought this little I can show it to you on the way out, but it's a little coffee grinder and you fill up the little tub and then you just hit the button and it gives you a really--

Angelo Keely: [02:27:25] Nice little bird grinder?

Luke Storey: [02:27:26] Yeah, it's super convenient. You run it. But it has occurred to me, I'm like, "Hmm," when I fill that up, those beans sit in there for about a month before I get through them and then fill it back up again. Do you think my beans are losing any action?

Angelo Keely: [02:27:40] Yeah, they are.

Luke Storey: [02:27:42] It's not being nitrogen flushed in there. I mean, there's oxygen in there.

Angelo Keely: [02:27:45] Yeah, I might just put enough in it for the week and then reseal it.

Luke Storey: [02:27:49] Okay. Cool. Noted.

Angelo Keely: [02:27:51] Yeah, I think you'll notice a fresher coffee.

Luke Storey: [02:27:54] Cool. Thank you for that. With all this stuff, I'm always going with guests. I'm always going for the optimal, perfect way. And then you create a spectrum and you just do the best you can.

Angelo Keely: [02:28:07] Exactly. Yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:28:08] You know what I am saying? It's like no one is going to do any of this stuff perfect. And I know from personal experience being too neurotic about all of it actually is not mentally healthy. 

Angelo Keely: [02:28:18] It's like life's not fun.

Luke Storey: [02:28:20] Yes.

Angelo Keely: [02:28:20] Or joyful or happy.

Luke Storey: [02:28:23] But I do like to create a benchmark for listeners and for myself and get information like the real deal on shit. Okay, here's optimal and then you have a scale to folgers. Folgers Instant Coffee would be like on the shwagest end of this. And Kion coffee, whole beans., get them right away. Keep them sealed. Grind just enough for your one cup kind of thing. And use a French press, that's what I do.

Angelo Keely: [02:28:48] I use a nice Breville espresso maker. I'm on those espresso game.

Luke Storey: [02:28:52] Are those good?

Angelo Keely: [02:28:52] Yeah, they're great. I'll send you a link.

Luke Storey: [02:28:54] You think they're all right with the heavy metals and stuff?

Angelo Keely: [02:28:56] I think they're okay.

Luke Storey: [02:28:57] Because I am paranoid about running hot water.

Angelo Keely: [02:28:59] Yeah, these are all steel. It's like steel. It's not aluminum.

Luke Storey: [02:29:01] Okay, cool. How much are they?

Angelo Keely: [02:29:04] 700 to 800 bucks. But you do that--

Luke Storey: [02:29:07] Worth saving for.

Angelo Keely: [02:29:08] You do that, and then you have a pretty awesome cup of coffee whenever you want it.

Luke Storey: [02:29:13] Well, that's the thing, too.

Angelo Keely: [02:29:15] It's freshly grind.

Luke Storey: [02:29:15] You're going to go drop six bucks on a coffee at the coffee shop and gas and that's what I do if I want to--

Angelo Keely: [02:29:23] And it's not as good a coffee. I mean, that's the thing I do. I am that particular. I want Kion quality coffee.

Luke Storey: [02:29:31] Not just clean, but their taste is good. Your coffee tastes freaking dope. Okay, cool. Excellent. Well, listen, man, I think we did the damn thing.

Angelo Keely: [02:29:41] It was fun.

Luke Storey: [02:29:42] I think we did it. We covered everything I wanted to. Thank you for your generosity of time. I don't know why, but sometimes it's like even if someone has a brand, they're talking about, maybe you guys will sell some key on it, lukestorey.com/kion. And I'm sure it's worth your time, but I always have so many questions, and when I'm making my manuscripts, I'm like, "Oh, this is kind of overkill. Who's going to sit there for two hours? But everyone does.

Angelo Keely: [02:30:05] I like when you were saying the number of questions you have is like, wow, that was a lot of questions.

Luke Storey: [02:30:09] Ambitious.

Angelo Keely: [02:30:09] But we really did it.

Luke Storey: [02:30:11] I'm intensely curious. And also when I'm prepping the manuscript for shows, I'm preemptively thinking of questions that I'll likely get from people when they're like, "Oh, why didn't you ask him about this?" I'm like, Oh, you're right. That happened to me yesterday. Someone sent me a message about something that I posted and they're like, "What about this?" And I'm like, "Oh, you're so right." So that would have made the interview two and a half hours instead of two. So thank you for hanging in there with me in the audience today.

Angelo Keely: [02:30:40] I enjoyed it, man.

Luke Storey: [02:30:40] Yeah, It's always good to see you.

Angelo Keely: [02:30:42] You're great host and interviewer and so real, dude.

Luke Storey: [02:30:47] All right, I got one last question for you. Yeah, another 10 minutes. No, this is a quick one. Who have been three teachers or teachings as a whole that have influenced your life in your work?

Angelo Keely: [02:30:59] My wife, Kerry. I think she has this really unique dynamic with me where she believes in me but doesn't totally let me see how much she believes in me.

Luke Storey: [02:31:13] That's good.

Angelo Keely: [02:31:19] Yeah, I think just her faith in life and me and what's possible, it's just really taught me to just be patient and to trust, because I guess that's the thing when we first met, I was pretty wild and all over the place. And her patience with me and faith in me, I think really just taught me how to settle down and how to be patient and to have not pop optimism, but  real optimism, faith, belief that whatever is possible is possible.

Luke Storey: [02:31:58] That's the best. I love it. 

Angelo Keely: [02:32:03] What's coming up is Rainer Maria Rilke. Famous German poet. He wrote these letters. It's called Letters to a Young Poet. It's funny. I think he was only like in his late 20s. But this kid, he was writing them two were like, 20. And they're all about kind of managing through suffering existential angst and your creative process. 

And it's just some of the most inspirational beautiful stuff that I've ever read. And I go back to it and it helps me any time. Any time it's hard, it helps me. There's this quote in that that he says-- in real letters he wrote to this kid and then they got published and this is like in 1900. But he talks about the pain that you're feeling is the future coming out of you. 

So many people think that the future is a thing outside of you coming toward you. But no, it's the future is this thing bursting out through your chest and your abdomen, and that's what pain is inside of you. And I just I love it, man.

Luke Storey: [02:33:09] I'm going to have to meditate on that. I like that.

Angelo Keely: [02:33:12] Yeah, I'll send a copy of the book. Yeah, I'd love to.

Luke Storey: [02:33:16] Cool. Thank you.

Angelo Keely: [02:33:17] And then a third one, I want to find something totally different. What's a good teacher? So, I mean, it's obviously sounds narcissistic, but I want to say myself. I used to pray. I was praying that I could be the mentor for myself that I kept seeking outside from other people, that I would offer myself enough grace and patience and kindness and sweetness and listen to me and coach me through things that I kept fantasizing that someone else was going to be able to do for me and help.

Luke Storey: [02:33:56] I relate my guru chasing years. I'm going to meet the enlightened master and they're just going to give it to me. Just touch on the forehead. You're good.

Angelo Keely: [02:34:07] Yeah. And it's like, I don't know, I'm finally giving myself enough just grace and space to be me and figure it out.

Luke Storey: [02:34:18] Wow. I like that. That's good. Yeah, it is a beautiful thing. I've began in the last few years to have that trusting relationship with myself because I needed a lot of mentors. I mean, I was lost so many points in my life. I needed a lot of help or I would have been just a lost cause. Maybe I still am in some ways, but no, I'm not. But it's that being your own teacher. 

And for me, it's like building the habit of not trying to figure something out, but just going within for the answer. I find myself just reading less spiritual books and listening to my spiritual audiobooks and all the things I used to just be constantly digesting information. And then at some point I gradually started to have that experience of just like, huh, well, what do you think, Luke? What should you do here? Do you really need to call someone or can you find that answer somewhere? And it's a practice that hasn't come easy, but that's a really good one. No one's ever said that before. About almost 500 episodes in I think that's good. Every time people surprise me, though. But that was a good one. I like that. 

Sometimes it's like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna like, all right, come on or their parents or like, those guys, yeah. Hey, you know. Not disparaging the greats, the avatars or anything, but yeah, man, I think many of us have more answers inside than we're willing to even acknowledge because it does require a certain degree of self love and an inverse humility where you can actually give yourself credit for who and where and what you are not diminish your own.

Angelo Keely: [02:36:01] I like that inverse humility.

Luke Storey: [02:36:02] Yeah, I mean, it's really all one humility. But for a long time I had this perception of that spiritual principle that was about staying small and not getting too big for your britches and not being ostentatious and conceited. But it's also--

Angelo Keely: [02:36:18] Which I also think is good as a phase in life. Like that is yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:36:23] And there's value in that. Don't take yourself too seriously. Stay humble. But the other side of humility that I find really more challenging to practice is to actually acknowledge my greatness and my brilliance and my talents and my love and those things that make me. It's like I learned this in 12 steps. They describe humility as-- paraphrasing, but essentially an honest appraisal of who you are and what you're all about, which includes all of your magnificence as well. And to downplay your magnificence and your intuition, your abilities, your intelligence talents, all that, to downplay it is actually the other side of the ego. Oh, no, I'm not all that know.

Luke Storey: [02:37:06] And I do that a lot. I can't take a compliment and I get embarrassed and something I'm working on is to just go, I'm fucking awesome. And there's still more work to do. There's still more evolution. That's showing me it's charm. Oh, let's lean into growing even more. But, man, it's good. It's good practice to look back and go, holy shit. Look at the guy I used to be. I mean, for me, it's astonishing that I even made it out of the Maya of my early life to sit here. So, man, thank you for that affirmation. I appreciate that.

Angelo Keely: [02:37:39] You're welcome.

Luke Storey: [02:37:40] Yeah, being your own teacher which my wife reminds me of that all the time. You don't need to go out there for the answers. You have it. And I'm like, oh, okay. I forget a lot. That's great. All right, dude. We did it. Thank you so much, Angelo.

Angelo Keely: [02:37:53] Thanks, Luke.

Luke Storey: [02:37:54] Angelo Keely, folks.

Angelo Keely: [02:37:56] Luke Storey, guys.

Luke Storey: [02:37:56] That was it. Well, that brings Episode 440 to a close, my friends. I of course, as usual, want to thank you for listening and more importantly, for helping us get over the 10 million download threshold. I got to say, I never imagined that these conversations would be listened to 10 million times when I started recording them back in 2016 in my little home office back in LA. 

And it goes without saying that the success of this show would not be possible without your support. So I am immensely grateful that you keep joining us each and every week. And speaking of weeks, we've got an incredible show for you next week, it's number 441. It's called The Missing Links in Health, Myth Busting, Iron Dysregulation and Copper Deficiency with Morley Robbins.

Now, I've been following Morley's work for years and finally managed to track him down for an interview. And the myth that he busts on next week's show are truly mind blowing for real. This coming episode is going to help so many people gain clarity about two very misunderstood and important minerals, and that's copper and iron. So make sure to click, follow or subscribe on your podcast player app right now. For real, just reach down and click right as you're hearing me speak.

This way, you won't miss next week's episode or any of the episodes to follow. And for those of you who want to check out some of Angelo's Kion products, I highly recommend them. I'm a huge fan and very much respect the integrity of their brand. Personally, I love their aminos, the protein powder, the sleep formula and, of course, the coffee. To get some of that stuff, you can visit lukestorey.com/kion and they're going to set you up with up to 40% off all their goodies. 

The discount, by the way, will be automatically applied. So you don't need a code for that. All right, that's it, my friends. I got a dip and get ready to prep some more episodes for you. I will see you next week with Morley Robbins.



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